View Poll Results: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

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    87 70.16%
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Thread: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

  1. #961
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Wilson didn't refute what Bush said about what British government said, he quite clearly said that in his opinion Bush was exaggerating the threat posed by Iraq. Here are the first two sentences from his NYT op-ed.

    Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?

    Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

    What I Didn't Find in Africa - New York Times
    Really?

    "Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

    The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them."

    GWB's conclusion was not touched upon by Wilson's report.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Really?

    "Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

    The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them."

    GWB's conclusion was not touched upon by Wilson's report.
    Yes, Really.

    Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

    The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case.

    Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government.


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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Same story, different authoritative government

    "Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, the third and last prime minister installed while the United States retained its military presence and political influence, leads an alliance, the State of Law Coalition, that won less than 25 percent of the 19 million votes cast in the last election in 2010. But the ethnic and sectarian splintering of the electorate, and the resulting absence of a coherent opposition, as well as his personal control of the muscular army and police — forces constructed under American tutelage — have allowed him leeway rare for an elected official, in the view of his rivals but also of many Western observers.

    A common view is that his leadership has replaced the Saddam era’s Sunni repression of the majority Shiites with the Shiite repression of the minority Sunnis. Sinister earmarks of this, his critics say, are the kind of abuses that filled human rights dossiers under Saddam, and are now carried out by thuggish gangs that have proliferated under Mr. Maliki’s rule. These abuses include kidnappings; assassinations; arbitrary arrests; faceless denunciations, often rooted in personal grudges; secret prisons; torture and disappearances; and dozens of executions, many of people accused of being Sunni extremists, and allowed little in the way of a real defense, according to a report last summer by a special United Nations investigator.

    As under Saddam, corruption has been rampant, with accusations abounding against Shiite politicians and warlords, who are said to have siphoned off a major share of Iraq’s $100 billion in revenue from its booming oil sector. The Maliki government’s critics say that has starved efforts to repair and upgrade the schools, sewage systems, power plants and other basic infrastructure the country desperately needs. "

    A Decade Later, Stability Eludes Iraq - NYTimes.com


    Only difference is US and British oil companies are back in Iraq for the first time since 1973!!!! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #964
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Yes, Really.

    Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

    The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case.

    Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate officials within our government.
    Thank you for making my point. Nothing in Wilson's report had anything to do with GWB's assertion. The connection between the two was purely made of Wilson's puffery.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Dying Iraq war veteran ashamed of President bush:

    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #966
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by JC Callender View Post
    In regards to your last sentence, why did they vote for the Iraq Resolution then? What did they have to gain?
    I have stated previously in this thread that most likely there were a number of factors.

    Oil was most likely one, but not the only one.
    Every political good carried to the extreme must be productive of evil.

  7. #967
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Thank you for making my point. Nothing in Wilson's report had anything to do with GWB's assertion. The connection between the two was purely made of Wilson's puffery.
    Wrong.

    My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself "a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs." After it became public that there were then Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick's report and the report from a four star Marine Corps General, Carleton Fulford, in the files of the U. S. government, I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have and did not occur. I did not speak out on the subject until several months after it became evident that what underpinned the assertion in the State of the Union address were those documents, reports of which had sparked Vice President Cheney's original question that led to my trip. The White House must have agreed. The day after my article appeared in the Times a spokesman for the President told the Washington Post that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union."


    Ambassador Joe Wilson's Letter to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee


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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Really?

    "Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

    The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them."

    GWB's conclusion was not touched upon by Wilson's report.
    Bullxit.

    We know it's buyllxit based on the number of people who fell on their swords trying to protect Bush by personally taking responsibility for the 16 words even being in the State of the Union address.

    The only part those 16 words that were true was that he was citing British intelligence. The underlying message, that Hussein had recently sought Uranium was completely without merit. Even our own CIA admitted they had looked into that same allegation made by the British but found it inconclusive and had expressed reservations to the British about its veracity.

    So to claim that Wilson's findings, which were that Hussein had not sought Uranium as suspected by our intelligence agencies, "was not touched upon by Wilson's report," is grossly misstating that piece of history.

  9. #969
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Wrong.

    My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself "a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs." After it became public that there were then Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick's report and the report from a four star Marine Corps General, Carleton Fulford, in the files of the U. S. government, I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have and did not occur. I did not speak out on the subject until several months after it became evident that what underpinned the assertion in the State of the Union address were those documents, reports of which had sparked Vice President Cheney's original question that led to my trip. The White House must have agreed. The day after my article appeared in the Times a spokesman for the President told the Washington Post that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union."


    Ambassador Joe Wilson's Letter to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee
    The "documents that turned out to be forgeries" were never the basis of any claim by anyone. The insertion of them into the discussion was Wilson's egregious contribution to the confusion of the question. Those documents were, however, essential to Wilson's attempt to carve out a putative important role for himself. They were part of his fraud.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  10. #970
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    Bullxit.

    We know it's buyllxit based on the number of people who fell on their swords trying to protect Bush by personally taking responsibility for the 16 words even being in the State of the Union address.

    The only part those 16 words that were true was that he was citing British intelligence. The underlying message, that Hussein had recently sought Uranium was completely without merit. Even our own CIA admitted they had looked into that same allegation made by the British but found it inconclusive and had expressed reservations to the British about its veracity.

    So to claim that Wilson's findings, which were that Hussein had not sought Uranium as suspected by our intelligence agencies, "was not touched upon by Wilson's report," is grossly misstating that piece of history.
    The British report was never refuted and remains HMG's official view to this day. The matter of "falling on their swords" speaks to political hyperventilation and confusion of the period rather than to the facts of the case. GWB's SOTU statement was accurate.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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