View Poll Results: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

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Thread: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

  1. #751
    global liberation

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    I would like you to define democracy, because from where I am sitting, democracy doesn't look like its that good for ecology.

    it COULD be, but not without education, and awareness.

    that is not rocket science.
    Look, it's very simple:

    When those directly affected by environmental degradation have NO VOICE in its authority and management, things are bad and get worse. The "education" and "awareness" comes from the fact that these people must LIVE with the degradation and are, in fact, acutely aware of it.

    Simple. Logic. Reason. Fact.

    I'm not gonna find the thousands of academic references to such.

    Good luck and good day.

  2. #752
    global liberation

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    regardless of whether this is true or not (and not all of the violence is necessarily attributable to this), why was it higher after the invasion?
    Do you have any idea how little violence was recorded under Saddam? Or has that factor completely escaped your analysis? Could someone really be that blindly committed to a position.

  3. #753
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You may value oil more than human lives, I do not, and I do not use our past immoral acts to justify our current immoral acts. If the American people had not been lied to about the reasons for the war they would never have supported it.
    This is exactly what you don't get - YOU DON'T MATTER. Oil is a national necessity. It is a global necessity. It is a resource. You may live your life gasoline free, plastic free, paper free, rubber free, and machine free, but the rest of the world does not. The rest of the world is sustained on oil. Perhaps instead of protesting the wars that achieve its security (or lack of wars to suport the dictators that do the same) you should actually protest something more closer to the problem - find a replacement for oil. But don't be surprised if we just go to war to protect that as well. The idea that fighting for a resource is unnecessary is stupid. All of history is against you.

    It is also not about justification. It's about looking at our reality and dealing with it.

    It also has nothing to do with the American people. Over 80% of Americans wanted nothing to do with a war in Europe and believed our war was in the Pacific. The American people didn't send money to France to stay in Vietnam (Truman, Eisenhower) and then send American troops to Vietnam (Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon). The American people didn't send troops to Beirut. The American people didn't send me to Somalia or Haiti. This idea that the American people have a say is beyond ignorance.

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  4. #754
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Absolutely not. This is a common occurrence after ANY war. There were also insurgents after WW II and Vietnam. It takes TIME for things to settle down.
    It will take more time with Iraq because we are not just dealing with Iraq. We never were. We have every proof before our eyes that we are up against an entire civilization of backwards, radical people between Cairo and Islamabad yet people still want Iraq to just be about Iraq. This is why Americans have no idea what is in their best interest. Anybody that would vote for a politician who preaches about no taxes is definately foolish when it comes to global affairs, especialy in this region.

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  5. #755
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    My point is that if you do not "acknowledge the mistakes of the past, you are doomed to repeat them," not to add fuel to any fires of hatred.
    Which is why I believe that our politicians should be historians, not lawyers.

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  6. #756
    Disappointed Evolutionist
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Does not negate the FACT that Iraq was terrorist friendly and had many terrorist training camps and God only knows what else. Saddam was KNOWN to have produced and used chemical weapons in the past against foreign and domestic enemies. What makes you think he would suddenly change his ways, I don't know. The guy was a danger to his own people and a danger to the world as well. He was unstable and created a lot of instability in the region.

    Now, the war has also caused instability in the region, but THAT is to be expected. It takes time to pick up the pieces and get back some stability. This is not some new idea. War tends to temporarily destabilize regions, but eventually things improve with time.

    Thanks for the far right talking points to desperately try to justify their war against the Iraqis. The majority of the country are no longer buying what you are trying to sell.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #757
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is exactly what you don't get - YOU DON'T MATTER. Oil is a national necessity. It is a global necessity. It is a resource. You may live your life gasoline free, plastic free, paper free, rubber free, and machine free, but the rest of the world does not. The rest of the world is sustained on oil. Perhaps instead of protesting the wars that achieve its security (or lack of wars to suport the dictators that do the same) you should actually protest something more closer to the problem - find a replacement for oil. But don't be surprised if we just go to war to protect that as well. The idea that fighting for a resource is unnecessary is stupid. All of history is against you.

    It is also not about justification. It's about looking at our reality and dealing with it.

    It also has nothing to do with the American people. Over 80% of Americans wanted nothing to do with a war in Europe and believed our war was in the Pacific. The American people didn't send money to France to stay in Vietnam (Truman, Eisenhower) and then send American troops to Vietnam (Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon). The American people didn't send troops to Beirut. The American people didn't send me to Somalia or Haiti. This idea that the American people have a say is beyond ignorance.


    Thanks for the far right world view!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #758
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    your argument is not consistent. If it is still taking time to settle down, maybe it is a bit premature to claim the world is a better place.
    First you have to understand the world.

    Our terrorist problem was that we were facing an exponentially growing and festering religious cess pool of radicals tat were breeding extremists between Cairo and Islamabad. This is why the hundreds of terrorist organizations throughout the Middle East held members from all countries. Your argumentative response here will be to point out that the 9/11 terrorists held no Iraqis. This is true, but it avoids the issue. Hussein did fund terrorist organizations in an attempt to call religious fanatics to his side and he did represent everything that is wrong in the Middle East. The degree of oppression and brutality that ditators like Mubarak, Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, Gaddafi, and Bashar al-Assad created the environment that left religious people only one avenue to effect change and bring about the social justice they have always wanted. That avenue was God. And in that avenue we know from history in every single culture on earth that fanaticism and extremism is manifested. The fact that Hussein's brand of oppression and brutality maintained good behavior within his borders is not something we should celebrate. This is, however, exactly what people do when they bring up that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Regional change menas regional change. Starting with the very dictator that constantly caused us to maintain a UN mission of starvation and a never ending escallation of troops in Saudi Arabia (among Osama's excuses for 9/11) was necessary. A better complaint was how the White House handled it and made it messier than it had to be.

    This Arab Spring, where Muslims rose up against their dictators throughout the Sunni world (Iranian protests were brief and useless in Iran), hasn't cried out for a new dictator. Not a religious theocracy. They cried out for Democracy. This is exactly what needs to happen throughout the region if we are to use the word "peace" more sincerely than we did when we celebrated Saddam Husein's talent fo forcing good behavior amonst his population. What you see in Iraq today is a direct result of a people struggling between the past the inevitable future. Why else do you think fighter from Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt rushed to thwart Iraqi Democracy in those "civil war" years? Why else do you think those governments did nothing to seal their own borders to prohibit Muslims from traveling to slaughter other Muslims? This is a historical changing of a region for the better before your very eyes and you can't see nothing except a bomb in Baghdad that the American invasion is to blame?

    If you shake up a can of soda for a few minutes and then pop the top, what do you think will happen? This regin has been shaken from colonization to dictator for so long that popping the top caused the inevitable explosion that was always going to happen. Focusing on Iraq as if it is some floating island where "our" dictator was doing his job apart from the region does not help to understand the world.

    This Middle Eastern issue will settle down eventually. However, the sooner peope accept that this has always been generational the better. This isn't as simple as having Japan and Germany fall to their kees in surrender. This is bigger, yet we treat it like its a small inconvenience and only about a single country. Even Afghanistan has proven to be about more than a single country. See what Pakistan's feelings are on the matter, where Al-Queda found support. This region reeks of confusion because of bad European made borders that carved up tribes or forced tribes together. With nuclear power on the way and finding its way into religious hands, how much time did you think we had to address this escallating problem?

    The events since the Iraqi invasion througout the region (women driving in Saudi, Arab Spring, Syrians rebelling, etc) shows that the world is headed to a better place. It was the one region on earth left unhealthy after World War II. It also happens to be the one region on earth where religious fanaticism was becoming an art form.

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  9. #759
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thanks for the far right world view!
    This has always been your problem. You see things in a spectrum.

    This isn't right. This isn't left. It's the world view that you and I live in. What you constantly complain about suggests that you live in a different world from the rest of us. Marxist utopia does not exist and never will. It can't. The closer we get, the better we become. But this does not mean its achievable anymore than winning a "War on Drugs" or winning a "War on Terror" as they are implied. The wars are a marathon with no finish line. So is security and growth in this world.

    120+ democracies created since 1900 and all embrace capitalism. Even China is developing within the industrial and economic system we created in the West. Calling it far right may make you feel better, but this is the world and this is security. Why do you think politicians spend more time bickering over the issues than fixing them? Because most of the issue are not to be fixed as long as people remain imperfect the issues are a matter of life where only details can get smoothed out. Preach about a perfect system and I will point out Mao, Stalin, and Hitler who thought they could fit imperfect people into a "perfect" system. At the heart of all civilizations is resources. If we vacated all our holdigs into resources and isolated ourselves from the world, we would just get sucked out again by the very people who deem themselves our superiors. It is a fact that Americans were happier before World War I when we practiced a great degree of isolationalism (never in its pure form). But who in the world twice proved that we can't be left alone in our happines? Who in the world demanded that a big brother be present just to avoid the calamities of global destruction?

    This is the world. Better to shape it in our image than to keep getting sucked into it after the fact.

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  10. #760
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by marywollstonecraft View Post
    so he is more powerful after his death?

    does that mean the world is better off without him?
    No...no. That is not what happened. Most of the Iraqi army didn't even see an American tank when we took down Baghdad. This was yet another Rumsfeld blunder who insisted that we avoid cities. Upon reaching Baghdad, the immediate American forces (1st Marine Division) witnessed an orgy of violence from the citizenry. There was great celebration for a couple weeks as people pulled down statues of Hussein, walked on paintings of him in the sidewalks, and even had cars run over artful reminders of Hussein in the highways. At the same time, people were burning every single building that had anything to do with the former government (to include the Olympic training Building). Amongst these people were former criminals that Hussein released before we got to Baghdad. There was looting, rapes, and murders for which the military was ill equiped or trained to deal with. Once again, the military found itself in a situation it was not prepared for (Bosnia, Somalia, Cuba). There was no plan from the Rumsfeld coven after taking Baghdad apart. Shortly after the Marines left. The Army rolled in with an extreme minimum of numbers (as permitted by Rumsfeld). Within months Islamic warriors from all over the region began swarming in on a mission to support the Al-Queda's mission to disrupt any sense of peace and democracy as they ignited the tribal hatred between the Sunni and the Shia. This was inevitable without Al-Queda's and the rest of the region's support. They merely sped it up. Baghdad was a caliphate seat of Sunni power for over six hundred years in the past and seeing it fall to the majority of voters (Shia) was unnacceptable then as it is now. The reason the tribes are so screwed up in these countries (Iraq being the worst because of the distinct separation between Sunni/Shia/Kurd) is historical and is another post - thank Europe though.

    The simple fact of this region is that religious fanaticism and extremism cannot find salvation in an enviroment where people have a choice. Without oppression, brutality, economic disaster, and a lack of social justice, religious fanaticism cannot take root. It cannot grow into a festering reality where hundreds of thousands of people now see violence as their only means to an end as they blame the Jews in their midst, the foriegn devils in the West, or the Muslim in a different tribe instead of looking in the mirror. This is why Al-Queda (to name one organization) has shifted from Sudan to Afghanistan to Iraq (where the lack of Hussein's brand of brutality offered opportnuity) to Pakistan to Yemen and finally to Mali until it finds a new home when chased out of there.

    Anyway, this is what happened to Iraq. It wasn't as simple as some Iraqis missing their beloved dictator. The only thing local Sunni Iraqis miss was the power they held over the majority (which democracy exposed). The overwhelming rest of the violence was and is from foreign Muslims frou around the region that see Iraq as the pivotal point between the past they want and the future they are going to get.

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