View Poll Results: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

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Thread: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

  1. #601
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Just for the record, Hitler helped us out by declaring war on us as we began to grapple with the political problem of how to include Germany in our war against Japan after Pearl Harbor.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Unfortunately we live in a world where resources have been involved with most wars. That's just the way it is. Whining about it or pretending that peope don't have to die over it won't get you anywhere. It's only a matter of time before it happens again. Did you know that water is the biggest resource that people fight over in the Middle East? Syria threatens Turkey constantly over water. We got over 70 percent of our rubber from Vietnam before we started sending troops abroad to maintain a sense of stability when the French hauled ass.

    My point is that you may as well see the greater issues at stake than simple resources that will always be involved. To think that after ridding ourselves and the ME of Hussein wasn't going to offer some kick back is foolish. Even keeping him on his throne as his people starved to death throughout the 90s was about oil stability. I know that was more than acceptable to people that looked the other way until 2003, but it's all the same manipulations for resource stability and regional social escalating chaos. I'm pretty sure you are older than me, so how is it that you pretend that oil in the Middle East is an anomaly to history?

    You may value oil more than human lives, I do not, and I do not use our past immoral acts to justify our current immoral acts. If the American people had not been lied to about the reasons for the war they would never have supported it.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No, but our options are always imperfect and tolerance for moral ambiguity is the price of admission to the grown-ups' table.
    That's exactly what the terrorists use to justify their actions. That's what you call grown-up?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #604
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You may value oil more than human lives, I do not, and I do not use our past immoral acts to justify our current immoral acts.
    Who made you Pope?

    If the American people had not been lied to about the reasons for the war they would never have supported it.
    I supported the Iraq war regardless of WMDs. Other parts of the platform were far more important to me (see signature, below).

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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That's exactly what the terrorists use to justify their actions. That's what you call grown-up?

    I could not disagree more. The terrorists are absolutists. You and they might get along.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  6. #606
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I could not disagree more. U.S. government support for Israel has always been viewed as a negative by our oil companies. We offer that support in spite of our economic interests, not because of them.
    "Early Western control of oil

    In the 18th and 19th centuries, major European nations competed to establish and maintain colonies around the world. Superior military power and economic leverage allowed them to create new markets for their manufactured goods, and to exploit the natural resources of the African, American, and Asian continents.

    Since the early part of the 19th century, Europeans vied to control the Middle East. The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 divided the Ottoman lands between the British and the French, giving those nations control over any natural resources, most importantly oil.

    Modern armies were thirsty for oil. The British navy was the first to switch from coal to oil in 1912, and other new technologies, like automobiles and airplanes, quickly and drastically increased the demand for fuel.

    The United States was becoming an important player in world affairs during the early 20th century, and soon Americans found they, too, had a vested interest in developing and controlling oil reserves in the Middle East to supply their growing needs.


    Struggles over Iranian oil

    More than 1,000 years ago, Zoroastrians in Iran revered the perpetual flames that burned where natural gas vented from the earth. In the early 20th century, British prospectors discovered oil in Iran and in 1908 began the first large-scale drilling projects there. The government of Iran sold the exclusive right to explore and drill for oil in Iran -- a "concession" -- to the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC). The British government bought a controlling stake in AIOC, and by the start of World War I, Iranian oil was Britain's most important strategic resource.

    In time, Iranians grew to resent the AIOC. The terms of the concession were so unbalanced that British investors were rewarded handsomely while the government of Iran made very little profit. Foreign businessmen and engineers in Iran led extravagantly wealthy lifestyles that contrasted sharply with the poverty of the local population.

    Frustration with foreign exploitation led to nationalization. The Iranian government of Mohammed Mossadeq nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company in 1953, but in a coup engineered by the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), this nationalist government was overthrown, and a government friendly to Western interests was installed under the control of the Shah of Iran.

    The continued economic and cultural influence of the West and the repressive nature of the Shah's regime led to the Iranian Revolution of 1979. The Shah was overthrown and exiled, and the new Islamic Republic of Iran was established, led by the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.


    American dependence on Middle Eastern oil

    After World War II, Britain and France gave up control over much of the Middle East, as they could no longer afford to continue their imperialist strategies, either politically or economically. But a new world power, the United States, increased its presence in the region as American demands for oil were rapidly growing and outstripping domestic supply.


    Standard Oil of California first discovered oil in Saudi Arabia in 1936. The huge deposits there and in the neighboring Persian Gulf countries -- the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and Bahrain -- established these countries as some of the richest in the world.

    Continuing American military power and domestic lifestyles depend on available access to Middle Eastern oil and reasonably low world petroleum prices. Thus, U.S. foreign policy initiatives work to support the stability of pro-U.S. governments, prevent anti-U.S. powers or blocs from forming, and reduce tension and potential armed conflict in the region.


    Relations between the Saudi and U.S. governments have traditionally remained strong. Some Americans have questioned that relationship since the events of September 11, 2001, when Osama bin Laden and several other Saudis were involved in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. At the same time, many Saudis mistrust their government's close relationship with the U.S. and resent other American policies in the region, such as U.S. support for Israel and the U.S.-led bombing of Iraq. The presence of armed U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia -- the birthplace of Islam -- is particularly galling to many Muslims.

    Because the Middle East has the world's largest deposits of oil (55 percent of the world's reserves) in an easily extracted form, Middle Eastern oil continues to be necessary to the United States. American dependence on foreign oil has grown steadily over the years; currently about 55 percent of the oil consumed in the U.S. is imported. This reliance on foreign oil leaves the country vulnerable to unilateral political and economic acts by oil producing countries. For example, although the U.S. advocated economic sanctions against Iraq after the Gulf War, 9 percent of the oil used by Americans after the war still came from Iraq, shipped through other countries."
    Global Connections . Natural Resources | PBS
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #607
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    And yet still nothing to support your claim that Iraqi oil was a US war aim.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  8. #608
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Only our convenience makes us better. I realize that acknowledging human nature is difficult, but the truth is that we are all immoral when the lights are out. Is the poor unemployed man robbing the local store to feed his starving family less moral than the rich man who feasts nightly? Convenience defines most things. Dropping nuclear bombs on civilian cities vs. a terrorists who slaughter a couple hundred people. "Terrorism" is a funny definition. Pretending otherwise is exactly why we are involved in wars longer than we need to be and seeing more blood run than is necessary. It's our "morality" that allows us to stand by and watch people starve to death at the hands of foriegn leaders. It's our "morality" that has us obeying international laws of stability where oppressive and brutal nations have a vote. It's out "morality" that kicks in only after we decide that enough is enough and we send CNN and FOX along with troops to record the carnage we created by ignoring the problems.

    I have no problem with my moraity. I define it according to the world I live in and what I have seen the truth of. Others define their morality to convenience, outdated international laws, and the false idea of a utopian world that doesn't exist. The Middle East lingers in misery and blood baths because our "morality" has refrained us from making these terrorists and their part of the civilization so scared that they would rather defy their God than defy us. Our retaliations should be so shocking that even our allies cringe. But instead we play this "moral" game. How much longer and how much more blood would have been shed had we played this game during World War II? For one side to lose a war, it must be convinced that it lost. Our morality has denied us the ability to convice anybody since World War II. Even the "victory" during the Gulf War was hlf assed and hallow given what it set us up for in 2003. We have lost our ability to convince anybody due to our false sense of superior morality. All we have done is prove to the world that we can a create a great amount of damage while preaching about morality. And what's morality without a victory? It's bull ****. Victory is forgiven and only then will our morality mean something.


    You and the terrorists have the same world view!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #609
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    And yet still nothing to support your claim that Iraqi oil was a US war aim.
    Only according to the far right. Most of world knows the war was about oil.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #610
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    Re: Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Only according to the far right. Most of world knows the war was about oil.
    Most of your private fantasy world, perhaps.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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