View Poll Results: Was the civil war worth it

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  • yes

    38 76.00%
  • no

    12 24.00%
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Thread: Was the civil war worth it all

  1. #51
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    You're making some VERY big assumptions. The first is that slavery would have been abolished. The value of slaves had grown to a point where their value to a plantation holder was second only to the value of his land. Now if that value went down over time, it would be abolished. However, the value increased greatly between 1820 and 1860. If it had increased at a similar rate between 1860 and 1900, there's no way until the 1930s.

    Your second assumption is that only 2 nations would exist. If the South had been allowed to secede, what would stop Vermont. Or say Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan forming their own Union. I also think it's very doubtful that the Confederacy stays together. That whole union was based on the idea that anybody could leave any time, so it's very likely that at least one of the States would have seceded from the Confederacy by 1920 if not before that.

    Then you build the "close allies" assumption on the other 2. Unless those other 2 assumptions played out, it's hard to say that the 3rd would


    So if you make a those assumptions, then no. If you make different assumptions, then maybe. I'd have to say yes because I'm not prepared to make assumptions, and things worked out OK.
    I stand by his first assumption. It's basically a simple question of economics. The rest of the civilized world had, for the most part, outlawed slavery and the slave trade.....and that means many of our potential trade partners. Simple supply and demand would have dictated an end to slavery. As other nations began to industrialize and find ways to produce commodoties such as sugar, tobacco and cotton more efficiently (and cheaply) .....the United States would have been forced to adapt or die economically speaking in the world markets. Nations that we supplied with cotton and other agricultural products would simply find cheaper sources for their goods.

    The Industrial Revolution was happening with or without the U.S. Question is....do you think that our free-market ideals and laissez faire mentality would have allowed us to lag that far behind by simply holding on to an outdated and inefficient method of production?
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  2. #52
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Absolutely.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
    -FDR

  3. #53
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    110% yes.


  4. #54
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    I'm just saying if you think you are going to get anything but liberal propoganda from Hollywood you are mistaken.
    Ever heard of Clint Eastwood?

  5. #55
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    I stand by his first assumption. It's basically a simple question of economics. The rest of the civilized world had, for the most part, outlawed slavery and the slave trade.....and that means many of our potential trade partners. Simple supply and demand would have dictated an end to slavery. As other nations began to industrialize and find ways to produce commodoties such as sugar, tobacco and cotton more efficiently (and cheaply) .....the United States would have been forced to adapt or die economically speaking in the world markets. Nations that we supplied with cotton and other agricultural products would simply find cheaper sources for their goods.

    The Industrial Revolution was happening with or without the U.S. Question is....do you think that our free-market ideals and laissez faire mentality would have allowed us to lag that far behind by simply holding on to an outdated and inefficient method of production?
    And, ultimately, Obama will no longer be president so really no one should bother evaluating him one way or another. To claim the present is irrelevant because the future will inevitably be different never has any merit. If the present it entirely intolerable, doing nothing speculating of better days in the future is just pure apathy - and sometimes pure selfishness and cowardice when it come to the most fundamental civil and human rights - which the question of slavery was.

  6. #56
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    It is such opinions as the OP being linked to terms such as "conservative," "libertarian" and "Republican" that is devastating to the political success of all 3 of those ideologies. It is one reason 95% of African-Americans continue to vote Democrat. It is a reason so many see white conservatives and Republicans as racists.

    While Ron Paul built his career on such extreme racist positions creating a niche circle of blindly devoted angry white men, it also assured he had no national viability. The OP is the Ron Paul perspective.

    The same will happen to Rand Paul if he continues to declare that businesses, neighborhoods, apartments etc can engage in racial segregation and discrimination in economic, housing and job equality. Building piles of words - calling it logic - never disguises racism to anyone.

    Condemning Lincoln and advocating the position of the Confederacy is not something people tend to be neutral or unemotional about. Personally, I see the Civil War as one of the highest moments of integrity in the history of the United States. IT is when the USA - the North - stood above the whole world in ethicals and morality.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-19-13 at 10:50 PM.

  7. #57
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It is such opinions as the OP being linked to terms such as "conservative," "libertarian" and "Republican" that is devastating to the political success of all 3 of those ideologies.

    While Ron Paul built his career on such extreme racist positions creating a niche circle of blindly devoted angry white men, it also assured he had no national viability. The OP is the Ron Paul perspective.
    Why does someone always have to go and derail a good thread with their analogies to modern-day politics which really have nothing to do with the OP?
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  8. #58
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    You're making some VERY big assumptions. The first is that slavery would have been abolished. The value of slaves had grown to a point where their value to a plantation holder was second only to the value of his land. Now if that value went down over time, it would be abolished. However, the value increased greatly between 1820 and 1860. If it had increased at a similar rate between 1860 and 1900, there's no way until the 1930s.

    Your second assumption is that only 2 nations would exist. If the South had been allowed to secede, what would stop Vermont. Or say Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan forming their own Union. I also think it's very doubtful that the Confederacy stays together. That whole union was based on the idea that anybody could leave any time, so it's very likely that at least one of the States would have seceded from the Confederacy by 1920 if not before that.

    Then you build the "close allies" assumption on the other 2. Unless those other 2 assumptions played out, it's hard to say that the 3rd would


    So if you make a those assumptions, then no. If you make different assumptions, then maybe. I'd have to say yes because I'm not prepared to make assumptions, and things worked out OK.
    I stand by his first assumption. It's basically a simple question of economics. The rest of the civilized world had, for the most part, outlawed slavery and the slave trade.....and that means many of our potential trade partners. Simple supply and demand would have dictated an end to slavery. As other nations began to industrialize and find ways to produce commodoties such as sugar, tobacco and cotton more efficiently (and cheaply) .....the United States would have been forced to adapt or die economically speaking in the world markets. Nations that we supplied with cotton and other agricultural products would simply find cheaper sources for their goods.

    The Industrial Revolution was happening with or without the U.S. Question is....do you think that our free-market ideals and laissez faire mentality would have allowed us to lag that far behind by simply holding on to an outdated and inefficient method of production?
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  9. #59
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    To the wealthy of the South, "slavery" and "economics" were the same. The 10 wealthiest Americans were all Southern plantation slave owners.

  10. #60
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    To the wealthy of the South, "slavery" and "economics" were the same. The 10 wealthiest Americans were all Southern plantation slave owners.
    I'm talking decisions which would effect national economies in the aggregate .....you know, as a macroeconomics issue. You seem to be looking at it from a microeconomics perspective......or how it only effects local or regionalized producers. Two very different approaches to the same issue.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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