View Poll Results: Was the civil war worth it

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    38 76.00%
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Thread: Was the civil war worth it all

  1. #21
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I do think the senseless loss of life and multitudes maimed is the biggest tragedy of the Civil War. Others might dismiss the human toll as being less important than the states rights issue. I say the south forfeited forever states rights and are now subject to federal oversight because of the crime of slavery. Compare to post WWII Japan.
    it was tragic, but the problem is, for some reason the Union seemed to lack the political will to make the great changes until after all that blood had been spilt. in some ways the cock-ups of general mcclellan made sure that the slaves were freed.

  2. #22
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The OP is radical Ron Paul total racial bigotry crap.

    The OP sobs huge tears for lose of white peoples lives of course - he's white. And doesn't give a DAMN for the millions of slaves who would have lived and died - if not outright murdered - during the time he guesses that only in 2 more generations of slaves they would have magically become free and equal in the independent Confederate slave nation. Maybe, in only half a generation they could have all become sharecroppers and servants rather than technically slaves - unable to vote of course.
    The OP opines that the slaves would have been freed anyway, so your comment about him not caring about them is a careless slander.

    So the OP claims that 4,000,000 slaves - and another 4-8,000,000 being slaves (slaves didn't tend to have long lifespans) being treated as slaves, beaten, raped, killed at will - all those don't count because they weren't human - they were just slaves.
    The OP said nothing of the kind.

    And he so CRIES over a million white people dying. Died because slave owners were the wealthiest people in the USA and they liked being the wealthiest, wanted slaves and wanted their own slave country too. So a million people died because of people of the opinion of the OP.
    So the deaths of white people, large numbers of white people, the vast majority of which were in no way wealthy and did not own slaves, is not to be mourned, if I take your meaning correctly.

    VERY SICKENING. Evil perspective. But not suprising given the OP also urged deliberately wanting and allowing people with HIV/AIDS to die as punishment for their immorality. He has made his hatred of anyone with any religious beliefs well known too.
    Given the level of misrepresentation you've already brought to the discussion I'm not inclined to believe you.

    The Civil War stopped the formation of a massive slave nation. I think that is what the OP laments.

    Has the OP missed posting any bigotries he has?
    Mind reading usually just betrays one's own secret thoughts and attitudes.

    Having said that, the Civil War was obviously worth it on a number of levels. Not only was slavery abolished but the executive branch was strengthened and the nation as a whole was greatly strengthened, which was a great advantage when it came time to fight WWII. I doubt that America, democracy, or freedom would have survived otherwise.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  3. #23
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    When only global government leaders can engage in an act of war (not citizens)....then every war...would come much closer to being worth having.

  4. #24
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Having said that, the Civil War was obviously worth it on a number of levels. Not only was slavery abolished but the executive branch was strengthened and the nation as a whole was greatly strengthened, which was a great advantage when it came time to fight WWII. I doubt that America, democracy, or freedom would have survived otherwise.
    that is a real possibility.

  5. #25
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    A thousand times yes.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  6. #26
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    The OP opines that the slaves would have been freed anyway, so your comment about him not caring about them is a careless slander.

    Given the level of misrepresentation you've already brought to the discussion I'm not inclined to believe you.



    Mind reading usually just betrays one's own secret thoughts and attitudes.

    It was not slander at all. To claim he believed that eventually slaves would have been freed anyway decades later - as if time stands still and if there would be no more slaves breed by rape and seized imported over the next decades - if slavery ever stopped at all - is not the irrelevancy as he asserts in silence.

    There would be no different than if I claimed WWII was not worth it because eventually Nazism would have failed, ultimately all nations would have regained their freedom and ultimately the killing of Jews would eventually stop... with all that happening within a few decades and no more than 1 or 2 more generations - and - because I speculate all that - I claim WWII was an unnecessary waste of lives and resources.

    Such is absurd and declares enslaving nations, people and genocide doesn't really matter much if you believe that will not continue for all eternity - as if when you are confident that within only half a century more or so it will end. Slavery is the ultimate evil. The number to suffer and die as slaves in his model? 4,000,000. Now many more imported, enslaved, and enslaved from birth within his time frame? 2-4,000,000 more - for which he shrugs his shoulders at all that... not even worth consideration to him. They were just cattle.

    How many decades are you willing for you, your children and all your relative now and born being slaves with no legal protections whatsoever?

    The OP is well known for bigotries. Raging that people with HIV/AIDS should not only be allowed to die, but deserve to die. Raging incessantly against people with religious bigotries... etc. The consistencies of the OP and the history is relevant - and to claim otherwise is to claim a person cannot claim the KKK is a racist organization by looking to it's history. The OPer has a history on this forum. So his OP trivializing blacks in slavery and that entire generation, an entire next generation born, and all those also seized in African all are just ... well, NOTHING. He ONLY counts white people who died in war. Not the millions dying in slavery.

    At least those who died in war died as free men - and they were in war at least as the result of a Democratic Republic. Not one slave voted to be a slave. Not to be born as a slave. Not to be worked as a slave. Not to be beaten, whipped, raped, inpregnated and murdered as a slave. Not to be captures and pressed into slavery. Not to die as a slave.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-19-13 at 08:27 PM.

  7. #27
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Eynon View Post
    that is a real possibility.
    It seems rather clear the Confederacy as a nation would have sided with Germany. Although slavery ended in the South via the Civil War, widespread total bigotry against non-white, non-Christians certainly overwhelmingly dominated Southern society in the 1930s.

  8. #28
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    IMO if the south had been allowed the right of secession slavery would have been abolished there very early in the 20th century anyway and what we would have now is two independent nations where we now have just the USA. I'm sure we would have been very close allies and quite possibly even become one nation again so I have to wonder if the civil war was really worth the carnage.

    "The approximately 10,455 military engagements, some devastating to human life and some nearly bloodless, plus naval clashes, accidents, suicides, sicknesses, murders, and executions resulted in total casualties of 1,094,453 during the Civil War. The Federals lost 110,100 killed in action and mortally wounded, and another 224,580 to disease. The Confederates lost approximately 94,000 as a result of battle and another 164,000 to disease. Even if one survived a wound, any projectile that hit bone in either an arm or a leg almost invariably necessitated amputation. The best estimate of Federal army personnel wounded is 275,175; naval personnel wounded, 2,226. Surviving Confederate records indicate 194,026 wounded.
    In dollars and cents, the U.S. government estimated Jan. 1863 that the war was costing $2.5 million daily. A final official estimate in 1879 totaled $6,190,000,000. The Confederacy spent perhaps $2,099,808,707. By 1906 another $3.3 billion already had been spent by the U.S. government on Northerners' pensions and other veterans' benefits for former Federal soldiers. Southern states and private philanthropy provided benefits to the Confederate veterans. The amount spent on benefits eventually well exceeded the war's original cost.
    Inflation affected both Northern and Southern assets but hit those of the Confederacy harder. Northern currency fluctuated in value, and at its lowest point $2.59 in Federal paper money equaled $1 in gold. The Confederate currency so declined in purchasing power that eventually $60-$70 equaled a gold dollar.
    The physical devastation, almost all of it in the South, was enormous: burned or plundered homes, pillaged countryside, untold losses in crops and farm animals, ruined buildings and bridges, devastated college campuses, and neglected roads all left the South in ruins."

    Cost Of The American Civil War
    The Civil War was worth it.

    And if it wasn't worth, the answer was for the South to have given up on slavery, not for the North to have allowed the Union to dissolve over it.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  9. #29
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    There would be no different than if I claimed WWII was not worth it because eventually Nazism would have failed, ultimately all nations would have regained their freedom and ultimately the killing of Jews would eventually stop... with all that happening within a few decades and no more than 1 or 2 more generations - and - because I speculate all that - I claim WWII was an unnecessary waste of lives and resources.
    I'll go there...so the premise is that the US stays out of Europe during WW2? ok so then:
    -Red Army still wins.
    -Hilter still winds up in a ditch on fire.
    -The longer war weakens the Soviets even more.
    -The weaker Soviet Union stays out of Asia.
    -US focuses more on Pacific.
    -Soviet puppet states of France and Holland are not allowed to re-occupy their Asian possessions.
    -Nationalists defeat Communists in China.
    -Korea is unified under an American backed government.
    -No Korea War, No Great-leap Forward, No Vietnam War, no Cambodian Kill Fields.
    -Millions of lives are saved.
    -backpacking across the recently liberalized european continent is cheaper.

  10. #30
    Imposition of miscellany
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Irrelevance. It was never a question of merit.

    Capitalism would not be denied.

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