View Poll Results: Was the civil war worth it

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Thread: Was the civil war worth it all

  1. #11
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    as an almost pacifist, i have to ask myself this question, and i try to answer objectively.

    the best i can come up with is this :

    military force is a bit like an immune response. when a rogue nation begins to significantly metastasize, sometimes an immune response is necessary to prevent the global body from becoming infected. the best example i can give is WWII. Germany was spreading all over Europe, and Japan was doing the same in other parts of the world. though i do dream about a time in which human society evolves past nations, violence, resource hoarding, and greed, i simply don't see a way we could have stayed out of that one. it was just too awful of a situation.

    most other wars, though, especially ones which had their root causes in failing colonialism and alliances, are much harder to defend. we should really study them, learn from them, and avoid situations like that in the future.
    Obviously the need to protect from the "tyrany of evil men" is necessary lest one looses everything. I think the OP brings up a point though about the worth of such action. I think the slaves at the time they were emancipated thought that the Civil War was worth it to free them from the tyrany of slavery. I don't think the south, once it lost the war, thought it was worth it any more than the Germans thought the WW's were worth it in hind sight.

    This is why it should be criminal to start a war on false pretense. Sorry for the blatantly partisan hack there but the set up was too good to pass up.

  2. #12
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    The OP is radical Ron Paul total racial bigotry crap.

    The OP sobs huge tears for lose of white peoples lives of course - he's white. And doesn't give a DAMN for the millions of slaves who would have lived and died - if not outright murdered - during the time he guesses that only in 2 more generations of slaves they would have magically become free and equal in the independent Confederate slave nation. Maybe, in only half a generation they could have all become sharecroppers and servants rather than technically slaves - unable to vote of course.

    So the OP claims that 4,000,000 slaves - and another 4-8,000,000 being slaves (slaves didn't tend to have long lifespans) being treated as slaves, beaten, raped, killed at will - all those don't count because they weren't human - they were just slaves.

    And he so CRIES over a million white people dying. Died because slave owners were the wealthiest people in the USA and they liked being the wealthiest, wanted slaves and wanted their own slave country too. So a million people died because of people of the opinion of the OP.

    VERY SICKENING. Evil perspective. But not suprising given the OP also urged deliberately wanting and allowing people with HIV/AIDS to die as punishment for their immorality. He has made his hatred of anyone with any religious beliefs well known too.

    The Civil War stopped the formation of a massive slave nation. I think that is what the OP laments.

    Has the OP missed posting any bigotries he has?
    Last edited by joko104; 03-19-13 at 05:31 PM.

  3. #13
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Eynon View Post
    I think one reason the war happened was because King Cotton was starting to peak. The Southern economy was reliant on exporting cotton to the UK, France, and the North. If those countries started relying on other places for their cotton, like the UK did with India, than the bottom falls out on the Southern economy and the price of slaves.

    Geographically their economy was also limited. By the time of the civil war the plantation had reached the western and northern limits of its viability.

    I could easily see a major Confederate economic crisis in the 1870s or 80s...followed by large French and British loans to bail them out...followed by French and British naval bases and troops to protect their interests.
    Even that assumes that they couldn't have expanded a slave economy into other things. What if they had gone into making the textiles themselves and used slaves as their labor force? Or that other states wouldn't have come on board, thus expanding the territory available.

    And I think British naval bases would probably keep the North from being closely allied.


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    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  4. #14
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    IMO if the south had been allowed the right of secession slavery would have been abolished there very early in the 20th century anyway and what we would have now is two independent nations where we now have just the USA. I'm sure we would have been very close allies and quite possibly even become one nation again so I have to wonder if the civil war was really worth the carnage.

    "The approximately 10,455 military engagements, some devastating to human life and some nearly bloodless, plus naval clashes, accidents, suicides, sicknesses, murders, and executions resulted in total casualties of 1,094,453 during the Civil War. The Federals lost 110,100 killed in action and mortally wounded, and another 224,580 to disease. The Confederates lost approximately 94,000 as a result of battle and another 164,000 to disease. Even if one survived a wound, any projectile that hit bone in either an arm or a leg almost invariably necessitated amputation. The best estimate of Federal army personnel wounded is 275,175; naval personnel wounded, 2,226. Surviving Confederate records indicate 194,026 wounded.
    In dollars and cents, the U.S. government estimated Jan. 1863 that the war was costing $2.5 million daily. A final official estimate in 1879 totaled $6,190,000,000. The Confederacy spent perhaps $2,099,808,707. By 1906 another $3.3 billion already had been spent by the U.S. government on Northerners' pensions and other veterans' benefits for former Federal soldiers. Southern states and private philanthropy provided benefits to the Confederate veterans. The amount spent on benefits eventually well exceeded the war's original cost.
    Inflation affected both Northern and Southern assets but hit those of the Confederacy harder. Northern currency fluctuated in value, and at its lowest point $2.59 in Federal paper money equaled $1 in gold. The Confederate currency so declined in purchasing power that eventually $60-$70 equaled a gold dollar.
    The physical devastation, almost all of it in the South, was enormous: burned or plundered homes, pillaged countryside, untold losses in crops and farm animals, ruined buildings and bridges, devastated college campuses, and neglected roads all left the South in ruins."

    Cost Of The American Civil War
    Putting aside the slavery issue, which is significant, the Confederacy and the Union may have developed rivalries over the territories and resources not yet incorporated into the Union. Even if they did not, dividing the two powers would gave vastly limited the nation's great achievements during the 20th century.

    Probably "worth it" on those terms alone.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 03-19-13 at 05:48 PM.
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  5. #15
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    IMO if the south had been allowed the right of secession slavery would have been abolished there very early in the 20th century anyway and what we would have now is two independent nations where we now have just the USA. I'm sure we would have been very close allies and quite possibly even become one nation again so I have to wonder if the civil war was really worth the carnage.

    "The approximately 10,455 military engagements, some devastating to human life and some nearly bloodless, plus naval clashes, accidents, suicides, sicknesses, murders, and executions resulted in total casualties of 1,094,453 during the Civil War. The Federals lost 110,100 killed in action and mortally wounded, and another 224,580 to disease. The Confederates lost approximately 94,000 as a result of battle and another 164,000 to disease. Even if one survived a wound, any projectile that hit bone in either an arm or a leg almost invariably necessitated amputation. The best estimate of Federal army personnel wounded is 275,175; naval personnel wounded, 2,226. Surviving Confederate records indicate 194,026 wounded.
    In dollars and cents, the U.S. government estimated Jan. 1863 that the war was costing $2.5 million daily. A final official estimate in 1879 totaled $6,190,000,000. The Confederacy spent perhaps $2,099,808,707. By 1906 another $3.3 billion already had been spent by the U.S. government on Northerners' pensions and other veterans' benefits for former Federal soldiers. Southern states and private philanthropy provided benefits to the Confederate veterans. The amount spent on benefits eventually well exceeded the war's original cost.
    Inflation affected both Northern and Southern assets but hit those of the Confederacy harder. Northern currency fluctuated in value, and at its lowest point $2.59 in Federal paper money equaled $1 in gold. The Confederate currency so declined in purchasing power that eventually $60-$70 equaled a gold dollar.
    The physical devastation, almost all of it in the South, was enormous: burned or plundered homes, pillaged countryside, untold losses in crops and farm animals, ruined buildings and bridges, devastated college campuses, and neglected roads all left the South in ruins."

    Cost Of The American Civil War
    I think a better question would be was slavery followed by sharecropping (slavery by a different name after slavery ended on paper) followed by racial segregation and discrimination that didn't officially end until the 1970s worth it all?
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Even that assumes that they couldn't have expanded a slave economy into other things. What if they had gone into making the textiles themselves and used slaves as their labor force? Or that other states wouldn't have come on board, thus expanding the territory available.

    And I think British naval bases would probably keep the North from being closely allied.
    thing about slavery is it doesn't seem to work that well for stuff outside the home and more the most basic manual labor (agriculture, mining)...a Southern textile industry would not be able to compete. They could have pushed into the mineral rich western territories like Arizona, but that would have meant war with the North. I think they were economically stuck and the future wasn't rosey.

    also yes, the Union would have lost their **** if the Brits or French had bases in the South.

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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I think a better question would be was slavery followed by sharecropping (slavery by a different name after slavery ended on paper) followed by racial segregation and discrimination that didn't officially end until the 1970s worth it all?

    good question. remember though that the breaking of the Planter's class political power led to good things aside from slavery, like the home-stead act and the transcontinental railroad. So the Civil War not only freed the slaves it cleared the way for the creation of history's greatest middle-class and higher education system.

  8. #18
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Of course it was worth it.
    That one. This really shouldn't be a debate.

  9. #19
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    IMO if the south had been allowed the right of secession slavery would have been abolished there very early in the 20th century anyway and what we would have now is two independent nations where we now have just the USA. I'm sure we would have been very close allies and quite possibly even become one nation again so I have to wonder if the civil war was really worth the carnage.

    "The approximately 10,455 military engagements, some devastating to human life and some nearly bloodless, plus naval clashes, accidents, suicides, sicknesses, murders, and executions resulted in total casualties of 1,094,453 during the Civil War. The Federals lost 110,100 killed in action and mortally wounded, and another 224,580 to disease. The Confederates lost approximately 94,000 as a result of battle and another 164,000 to disease. Even if one survived a wound, any projectile that hit bone in either an arm or a leg almost invariably necessitated amputation. The best estimate of Federal army personnel wounded is 275,175; naval personnel wounded, 2,226. Surviving Confederate records indicate 194,026 wounded.
    In dollars and cents, the U.S. government estimated Jan. 1863 that the war was costing $2.5 million daily. A final official estimate in 1879 totaled $6,190,000,000. The Confederacy spent perhaps $2,099,808,707. By 1906 another $3.3 billion already had been spent by the U.S. government on Northerners' pensions and other veterans' benefits for former Federal soldiers. Southern states and private philanthropy provided benefits to the Confederate veterans. The amount spent on benefits eventually well exceeded the war's original cost.
    Inflation affected both Northern and Southern assets but hit those of the Confederacy harder. Northern currency fluctuated in value, and at its lowest point $2.59 in Federal paper money equaled $1 in gold. The Confederate currency so declined in purchasing power that eventually $60-$70 equaled a gold dollar.
    The physical devastation, almost all of it in the South, was enormous: burned or plundered homes, pillaged countryside, untold losses in crops and farm animals, ruined buildings and bridges, devastated college campuses, and neglected roads all left the South in ruins."

    Cost Of The American Civil War


    I don't think I can answer whether it was worth it or not... however you are correct, slavery was on the way out because machinery was making it economically obsolete, not to mention public opinion in the Western world rapidly making it socially unacceptible.

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  10. #20
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    Re: Was the civil war worth it all

    Quote Originally Posted by Eynon View Post
    good question. remember though that the breaking of the Planter's class political power led to good things aside from slavery, like the home-stead act and the transcontinental railroad. So the Civil War not only freed the slaves it cleared the way for the creation of history's greatest middle-class and higher education system.
    I do think the senseless loss of life and multitudes maimed is the biggest tragedy of the Civil War. Others might dismiss the human toll as being less important than the states rights issue. I say the south forfeited forever states rights and are now subject to federal oversight because of the crime of slavery. Compare to post WWII Japan.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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