View Poll Results: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

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  • Yes. Having children is a moral obligation to God/society/family/etc.

    9 3.93%
  • No, they are free not to have children. They don't have to answer to anybody

    161 70.31%
  • Not if they have reproductive problems.

    2 0.87%
  • Yes, even if they have reproductive problems. They can adopt, you know.

    1 0.44%
  • They should get a medal for lowering world population.

    44 19.21%
  • Other

    10 4.37%
  • I don't know.

    2 0.87%
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Thread: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

  1. #461
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Humans by nature are rather gentle actually, because we don't really have to compete when we're in a nomadic state. Murder was very rare, because you have to be somewhat blunted to do it, and in those kinds of close tribes, it's nearly unthinkable.
    Jumpin' Jehoshaphat! Please leave this pop science schlock out of debates. If you know something, state it, but garbage "science" doesn't really count as knowing something. Where'd you learn this, some anthropology class, for god's sakes. Peaceful and noble savages.

  2. #462
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Jumpin' Jehoshaphat! Please leave this pop science schlock out of debates. If you know something, state it, but garbage "science" doesn't really count as knowing something. Where'd you learn this, some anthropology class, for god's sakes. Peaceful and noble savages.
    This doesn't pertain to state of nature tribes, as is clear simply by their housing. They are certainly at least semi-agriculturalists, who do indeed make war and acts of violence at much higher rates.

  3. #463
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    In asking this question in this way, you are simply choosing to deny that there are people different from you, and insisting that despite the fact that you are not in our heads, you know us better.

    So if you are simply going to reject the possibility that we know ourselves better than you do, why do you deserve acknowledgment?

    Tell me, do you think you'll wake up one day and regret terribly that you had kids? What if I simply insisted this was a very real possibility no matter how you feel about it?
    No, although given what others must have said to you in the past, I can understand why you would misconstrue my question in such a way. But here's the thing. I've never asked this question of you. Why? Because you are not throwing up "pregnancy is a disease" bit that Ocean does. With you there is at least this feeling of nothing is impossible, just extremely unlikely, which is certainly easy to accept. Maybe when you were younger you were that vehement. But you don't come across like that now. Ocean has been phrasing most of her statements regarding pregnancy as if she were a 20 something, which is what prompted the questioning in the first place.

    I'm a little too late in the years to regret having the kids. They are grown and out of the house. And I will say honestly that there has always been some regret on them but it was more directed at the years wasted with their mother and not the kids themselves. However, I will won't ever say that it is an impossibility for that deep terrible regret to descend upon me. While I doubt it, much as I doubt that Ocean will change her mind, it is still possible. I at least can acknowledge the difference between possibility and probability. Logan's Law #1: Nothing is impossible, merely highly improbable. So then the question remains, can you and/or Ocean accept that it is possible, while being highly improbable, that something could occur that might cause you to change your minds?
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  4. #464
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrid View Post
    I am childless because I am disabled and mentlaly ill to the point where it would not be good fo rthe hcild if I raised them (at leas tnot at this point, I'm 27). While my mental illness and disabilities could make me iferior by some people's standards, given the circustances as they are, being childless in my case is in everyone's best interest.

    I personally do not consider any huan being inferior to any other. I do consider some behavior to be immoral (these mostly are considered crimes by everyone, since I'm very liberal in terms of ethics otherwise). In my opinion, making the choic enot to have children is not su ch an immoral behavior. I do not like the superiority complex many c hildfree people have, but then again I understand wher eit comes from given the general societal attitude that, even if childless couples aren't strictly speaking infrerior, their chice is often condemned.

    As for th eperson who said criminals have parents too: at this point there is no way of selecting for future criminal conduct, so while you might think they'd betternot be born, you can't fault their parents for this.
    Welcome to the forum!

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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    "Inferior" and "superior" are not the right words.

    I believe it is fair to state that GOOD parents do more for the long term future of the country than those who do not have children, but BAD parents can do more harm.

    The future of the country depends upon GOOD parents as their children are the future of the country.

    "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."

  6. #466
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    No, it isn't. It's something people have the luxury of misinterpreting due to a poor understanding of science.

    In our biological history, no one gives a crap what some random chick from the next tribe over does.

    Humans by nature are rather gentle actually, because we don't really have to compete when we're in a nomadic state. Murder was very rare, because you have to be somewhat blunted to do it, and in those kinds of close tribes, it's nearly unthinkable.

    And see, that's the point. Almost everything about humanity is flexible, depending on environment and culture. That's our survival mechanism: flexibility.
    It's you who has a poor understanding here.

    You're not "in the next tribe", you're part of this tribe (American society) as you've just admitted. But if you want to follow that logic, why would "some random chick from the next tribe over" give a **** about what the people in this tribe are saying? Yet here you are, complaining about the things people say.


    "Murder" (as in unacceptable killing) may have been rare but not killing or violence in general. Your "gentle savage" is an illusion. There were DMZ's between tribes long before modern warfare. They go clear back to when we were using sticks with fire hardened points as weapons.


    Our unique and main survival mechanism is tool making. If you can't skin an animal and figure a way to wear it's pelt, then you don't survive the cold of the North. If you don't know how to carry some kind of shade around with you, then you don't survive the desert. If you don't have a weapon of some kind, the cat stands a much better chance of killing you. You just might be able to drive him away with a sharp stick or fire. Tool making is why we inhabit the huge variety of climates and ecosystems we do. Your "social flexibility" (what little we have, if any) is useless without it.


    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    This culture, in which women are still generally considered more of a tool than actual people, is prone to pestering women about what they do with their uterus. That doesn't mean it's "natural." So if you don't think it's ok, stop making excuses for it.
    Yes, it is natural to expect people to procreate --- and I wasn't making an "excuse" for the guy that murdered his wife's lover, either. Just because I choose to analyse something doesn't mean I agree with it - which I've already said more than once, now.

    Normally we get along fine and we agree on virtually everything in this area of conversation (we agree now, too, for that matter) but this time you've gone over the edge. It's obvious that, for whatever reason, you're very emotionally involved in this topic - even more so than normal. I can understand that (I'm not making an excuse for you, either) but it does nothing to promote rational conversation. I'm sure we'll still be on the same side the next time, too, I just hope you'll keep your cool a little better and not throw around baseless accusations.

    /thread
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-21-14 at 02:50 AM.
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  7. #467
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Well, unlike some here who think I'm Mr Fundie Man, it doesn't bother me that you don't want children. Raising children is probably one of the more difficult and time-robbing practices known to humankind. One needs to be totally dedicated and involved in the process to be successful.

    But, it is also the most rewarding and satisfying of all human endeavours.
    Well, to make such a statement accurately, you would have to have personally experienced every, single human endeavour.

    And since you have probably only 'experienced' a tiny fraction of them, then you cannot know how 'rewarding and satisfying' they all are.

    You maybe right, but you cannot know it, you can only believe it.

  8. #468
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    No, although given what others must have said to you in the past, I can understand why you would misconstrue my question in such a way. But here's the thing. I've never asked this question of you. Why? Because you are not throwing up "pregnancy is a disease" bit that Ocean does. With you there is at least this feeling of nothing is impossible, just extremely unlikely, which is certainly easy to accept. Maybe when you were younger you were that vehement. But you don't come across like that now. Ocean has been phrasing most of her statements regarding pregnancy as if she were a 20 something, which is what prompted the questioning in the first place.

    I'm a little too late in the years to regret having the kids. They are grown and out of the house. And I will say honestly that there has always been some regret on them but it was more directed at the years wasted with their mother and not the kids themselves. However, I will won't ever say that it is an impossibility for that deep terrible regret to descend upon me. While I doubt it, much as I doubt that Ocean will change her mind, it is still possible. I at least can acknowledge the difference between possibility and probability. Logan's Law #1: Nothing is impossible, merely highly improbable. So then the question remains, can you and/or Ocean accept that it is possible, while being highly improbable, that something could occur that might cause you to change your minds?
    I'll tell you what Ocean's deal probably is. I see this a lot, and I've done my rounds with it as well, I freely admit; you can see a hint of it in my posting history. It gets more common as childfree people get older. This is why there are studies on childfree stigma management.

    Childfree women can get some really abusive **** hurled at them. And it takes something that used to just kind of be background noise to us (we realized one day we won't have kids, and there ya go) and turns it into something that makes us feel like we're constantly under attack -- because some of us actually are. I've had people wish ill health on me and had a family member I was being punished by god for not wanting kids.

    If you read Ocean's posts, she indicates she's in her 40's or so. She's not a spring chicken. I'm actually the youngest childfree person in this thread, if not the youngest on DP.

    I do not think there is anything that would change my mind that would not also change my personality. And like I said, in such a case, I am glad I am already sterile.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 03-21-14 at 06:09 AM.

  9. #469
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's you who has a poor understanding here.

    You're not "in the next tribe", you're part of this tribe (American society) as you've just admitted. But if you want to follow that logic, why would "some random chick from the next tribe over" give a **** about what the people in this tribe are saying? Yet here you are, complaining about the things people say.


    "Murder" (as in unacceptable killing) may have been rare but not killing or violence in general. Your "gentle savage" is an illusion. There were DMZ's between tribes long before modern warfare. They go clear back to when we were using sticks with fire hardened points as weapons.

    Our unique and main survival mechanism is tool making. If you can't skin an animal and figure a way to wear it's pelt, then you don't survive the cold of the North. If you don't know how to carry some kind of shade around with you, then you don't survive the desert. If you don't have a weapon of some kind, the cat stands a much better chance of killing you. You just might be able to drive him away with a sharp stick or fire. Tool making is why we inhabit the huge variety of climates and ecosystems we do. Your "social flexibility" (what little we have, if any) is useless without it.


    Yes, it is natural to expect people to procreate --- and I wasn't making an "excuse" for the guy that murdered his wife's lover, either. Just because I choose to analyse something doesn't mean I agree with it - which I've already said more than once, now.

    Normally we get along fine and we agree on virtually everything in this area of conversation (we agree now, too, for that matter) but this time you've gone over the edge. It's obvious that, for whatever reason, you're very emotionally involved in this topic - even more so than normal. I can understand that (I'm not making an excuse for you, either) but it does nothing to promote rational conversation. I'm sure we'll still be on the same side the next time, too, I just hope you'll keep your cool a little better and not throw around baseless accusations.

    /thread
    Yes, I am. You can't have a tribe of 300 million. I don't know any of these people, and I'd be getting the same crap if I were from the UK.

    It isn't that I care what people say. It's that I view it as an outgrowth of oppressive social control and sometimes misogyny, so I make an effort to advocate against it simply on the principle of the matter.

    Actually violence was relatively rare. We don't see it spike until the earlier forms of agriculture appear. I actually saw a documentary about one of these tribes that still exists, and it was interesting because one of the main women being interviewed was cheating on her husband and everyone knew it. What did he do? Nothing.

    What little social flexibility we have? You're kidding, right? Human societies can't even agree on how many genders there are, or whether eating animals is right. We have as much social flexibility as it is possible for any organism to have.

    There is nothing rational about this weird form of social darwinism promoted by people who know nothing about sociology or anthropology.

  10. #470
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I'll tell you what Ocean's deal probably is. I see this a lot, and I've done my rounds with it as well, I freely admit; you can see a hint of it in my posting history. It gets more common as childfree people get older. This is why there are studies on childfree stigma management.

    Childfree women can get some really abusive **** hurled at them. And it takes something that used to just kind of be background noise to us (we realized one day we won't have kids, and there ya go) and turns it into something that makes us feel like we're constantly under attack -- because some of us actually are. I've had people wish ill health on me and had a family member I was being punished by god for not wanting kids.
    Yep, and I'm no exception. For some irrational reason, some folks get really riled at the idea that a WOMAN can reject motherhood as a life path for herself, since they've decided "that's what ALL women are supposed to do," and other such nonsense. Usually the hostility comes from members of the militant religionist camps, the ones who have been indoctrinated from an early age with that "be fruitful and multiply" command, but occasionally it comes from non-religious people too.

    I've lost count of how many times I pointed out that I enjoy my life more BECAUSE I don't have children -- or husband either -- so why would I want to change that? The answer is simple; I DON'T want to change it, and have no intention of doing so. Since I have no intention of getting married either, the idea that I would "meet someone who could change my attitude about kids" is just a WISH in those people's minds. And as we all know, just because someone makes a wish doesn't mean that wish will come true.

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