View Poll Results: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

Voters
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  • Yes. Having children is a moral obligation to God/society/family/etc.

    9 3.93%
  • No, they are free not to have children. They don't have to answer to anybody

    161 70.31%
  • Not if they have reproductive problems.

    2 0.87%
  • Yes, even if they have reproductive problems. They can adopt, you know.

    1 0.44%
  • They should get a medal for lowering world population.

    44 19.21%
  • Other

    10 4.37%
  • I don't know.

    2 0.87%
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Thread: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

  1. #431
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I agree with you. If Ocean was just a vehement about having 5 kids, I would probably ask the same question and give her the same warning, especially about looking at so specific a number. I never really thought as a young man that I would have more than a couple of kids, but I ended up with 4 of my own and a step-son. Now I never really plan on a family size one way or another. There were many things in my life that I strongly denied I would do when younger that now I do. Logan's Law #3: Don't ever say "never". That's really my only message to Ocean.
    Well thanks; I got your "message," and guess what, I DIDN'T change my mind. As I told WCH, I'm 40+ now, and I still have NO desire for children and NO intention to have them. And yes, I still have the same feelings about pregnancy and children that you pointed out, no changes there either.

    So in my case at least, the word "NEVER" still applies.

  2. #432
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean007 View Post
    Well thanks; I got your "message," and guess what, I DIDN'T change my mind. As I told WCH, I'm 40+ now, and I still have NO desire for children and NO intention to have them. And yes, I still have the same feelings about pregnancy and children that you pointed out, no changes there either.

    So in my case at least, the word "NEVER" still applies.
    So then back to a question I asked you in another thread a while back that you never answered: If (and I'm making that a very big "if" right now) something were to change and you did end up either married or with at least one kids (even via adoption), will you come back here to DP and admit that you had been wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong yet or that you will be. But only a fool never entertains the possibility.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  3. #433
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean007 View Post
    I'm 40+, and still loving the childfree choice just as much now as I did in my teens and twenties. I enjoy my life more BECAUSE I don't have kids, or husband either, so there is, thankfully, NO chance that I will change my mind. Hope that clears things up for you.
    Well, unlike some here who think I'm Mr Fundie Man, it doesn't bother me that you don't want children. Raising children is probably one of the more difficult and time-robbing practices known to humankind. One needs to be totally dedicated and involved in the process to be successful.

    But, it is also the most rewarding and satisfying of all human endeavours.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    But, it is also the most rewarding and satisfying of all human endeavours.
    Subjective statement.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  5. #435
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post

    So what does/did you boss say about that while you were on the clock?
    Dont be hatin'
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #436
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Dont be hatin'
    Hey I only nap on my lunch break.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  7. #437
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I agree with you. If Ocean was just a vehement about having 5 kids, I would probably ask the same question and give her the same warning, especially about looking at so specific a number. I never really thought as a young man that I would have more than a couple of kids, but I ended up with 4 of my own and a step-son. Now I never really plan on a family size one way or another. There were many things in my life that I strongly denied I would do when younger that now I do. Logan's Law #3: Don't ever say "never". That's really my only message to Ocean.
    Again, I get what you're saying, but I think a lot of people who want kids don't quite get how some childfree people are built.

    It's relatively easy to go from a smaller number of kids to a larger one, or the opposite, because fundamentally, the idea of "kids" makes sense to you. It fits in your brain somewhere. I understand this mindset, because hey, I'm that way about animals.

    Here's what you have to get: for some childfree people, the idea of "kids" just doesn't make sense in our brains. It is fundamentally at odds with the most basic aspects of our personalities. This is especially common in those of us who were "early articulators," like myself.

    There are those for whom it does compute; there are childfree people who don't have kids for purely practical or accidental reasons, and just decide to be cool with that.

    But there's some of us who are just wired differently. I've heard some people compare it to fundamental personality traits, like introversion or artistic mindset, or even to their sexuality. And hey, if you look at nature, you could make a serious case for that: there's a few in every species who just don't do the parenting thing, no matter how many times nature gives them a shot at it. The amount of change that would be required for me to suddenly want kids is something that could probably only be brought about by serious head trauma, and quite frankly, I am glad I am fixed so that if I ever lose my mind like that, I wouldn't be capable of ruining my life as well.

    For those of us who are just wired up this way, saying "you never know -- you might want kids someday" is like saying, "you never know -- you might suddenly become an extrovert or change sexualities." Sure, that could happen... if I got hit in the head with a piano.

    The whole concept just does not make sense in our heads, for some of us. Just like, for some people, the idea of never having children makes the future look like an empty box.

    And I get that this isn't what you're trying to do, but when people tell us we'll change our minds, it feels like they're denying our agency over ourselves, because no one ever says that to someone who wants kids, and they plainly don't understand how we're wired. No one ever says "Don't have kids -- you might regret it," even though some people do regret it. And frankly, even if none of this were the case, I think regretting not having them is a far smaller tragety than regretting having them. People just seem to hate the idea that some of us aren't going to kowtow to their mindset, and really don't feel like we're missing anything.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 03-19-14 at 04:33 PM.

  8. #438
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Again, I get what you're saying, but I think a lot of people who want kids don't quite get how some childfree people are built.
    Let's understand that there are two basic criticisms - the "don't pay your fair share" and the "I don't get you guys."

    Here's what you have to get: for some childfree people, the idea of "kids" just doesn't make sense in our brains. It is fundamentally at odds with the most basic aspects of our personalities. This is especially common in those of us who were "early articulators," like myself.
    Mother Nature is always experimenting and it produces rejects and dead ends all the time. I suppose we can celebrate that Mother Nature isn't resting on her laurels, but a dead end is still a dead end.

    For those of us who are just wired up this way, saying "you never know -- you might want kids someday" is like saying, "you never know -- you might suddenly change sexualities." Sure, that could happen... if I got hit in the head with a piano.
    You're missing the point of that line of criticism. To put it into Rumsfeldian terms, what we're dealing with here is an "unknown known." You have one group of people, those who say they don't want to have children, and there are two outcomes possible, they don't want to have children or they do want to have children. A very large segment of those who claim that they don't want to have children eventually change their mind and do want to have children. The problem here is that there is no way of distinguishing which of the known outcomes a person will eventually fall into because they both expressed the same opinion at an earlier stage in life.

    Maybe think of it this way -

    -"I don't like chocolate."
    -"How do you know until you try."
    -"I just know."
    -"Try it"
    -"OK, I'll try it."

    Branch out here:

    #1 - "Hey, chocolate tastes good."
    #2 - "Yuck, that's awful. I told you I didn't like chocolate. See, I was right."

  9. #439
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Again, I get what you're saying, but I think a lot of people who want kids don't quite get how some childfree people are built.
    I snipped most of that because there was no point in quoting it all. I get what you are saying and RiverDad's point aside, when we asked these questions and noted that there was always the possibility of changing minds, we get hit with the "you're a misogynist and are trying to put women in what you feel is their place" attitude, or something very much like it. Which wasn't the case. What we were making a point on had nothing to do with gender or a woman's place.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  10. #440
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    Re: Should childless couples be considered inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Let's understand that there are two basic criticisms - the "don't pay your fair share" and the "I don't get you guys."

    Mother Nature is always experimenting and it produces rejects and dead ends all the time. I suppose we can celebrate that Mother Nature isn't resting on her laurels, but a dead end is still a dead end.

    You're missing the point of that line of criticism. To put it into Rumsfeldian terms, what we're dealing with here is an "unknown known." You have one group of people, those who say they don't want to have children, and there are two outcomes possible, they don't want to have children or they do want to have children. A very large segment of those who claim that they don't want to have children eventually change their mind and do want to have children. The problem here is that there is no way of distinguishing which of the known outcomes a person will eventually fall into because they both expressed the same opinion at an earlier stage in life.

    Maybe think of it this way -

    -"I don't like chocolate."
    -"How do you know until you try."
    -"I just know."
    -"Try it"
    -"OK, I'll try it."

    Branch out here:

    #1 - "Hey, chocolate tastes good."
    #2 - "Yuck, that's awful. I told you I didn't like chocolate. See, I was right."
    I suppose, if you are hallucinating Mother Nature as a sentient being who values any of us for any reason... which she doesn't. She doesn't care if every single one of us die. We are simply organisms that replicate for no distinct reason. We just do. And no one cares about it except us.

    And besides that, some of the worst people imaginable are some of the same who reproduce the most. Dictators with harems, "breed for the holy war" people, deadbeat dads... yeah, they're sure doing a service, aren't they? The Founding Fathers who had no children, or the multitudinous scientists, artists, etc, who have none... well, they're just taking up air, right? So I take it you think the Constitution is a dead end, then, since it was partly produced by a couple of people who never had kids.

    I can try kids without having any, just like I can try extroverted behavior without being an extrovert. I know I don't want one for the same reason I know I am not the other. And I see no reason to ruin my life and that of a child's simply because some people are not ok with the idea that I have stuff I'd rather do than breed.

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