View Poll Results: Has Obama redefined Democratic positions and Liberalism?

Voters
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  • Yes, and I disapprove of many of the changes

    11 36.67%
  • Yes, and I approve of many of the changes

    1 3.33%
  • No, his policies are what liberalism really has always been

    5 16.67%
  • No, I see no changes from traditional liberal and Democratic principles

    6 20.00%
  • IDK/Other

    7 23.33%
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Thread: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

  1. #41
    Advisor WWGWD's Avatar
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Loopholes exist for a reason. They're meant to encourage spending in areas that normally a corporation would not. Do you really want a world where there are no corporate sponsored scholarships, charities, hiring breaks, investment, and any of a number of altruistic actions that corporations offer these days? I know I wouldn't.
    You are talking about deductions, that's not what I meant. I'm all for insentives for certain actions by corporations. I'm not for American companies being allowed to funnel profits into shell companies, in the Vigrin islands, and not having to pay a penny of taxes on that income. Income that should be taxed, because the business is operated and made successful by American resources. Those are the types of loop hose I would like to see addressed.

    [/QUOTE]Capital gains need a lower effective tax rate because it requires a significant amount of risk. Everyone hears about people who make money with capital gains. Nobody ever hears about the people who lose money that way. Not every investment pays off. Not every asset appreciates.

    Let me put it this way: Would you go to a casino's roulette wheel and put your money on a number 1-36 if the payoff was 10:1? Statistics say that you'd be a complete fool to do that. Why? It's simply not proportionate to risk. [/QUOTE]

    It seems to me that you are over simplifying the capital gains process. Short gains seriously the effect the stability of the market. The fluctuations they cause can be profitable in the short term for the investors, but can depreciate the long term value of a companies stocks. That continues practice can cause what I have heard it called a, "crisis of confidence" in the market. That's a problem that I think can be effected by incentivising long term sales, over short term. It seems to me the solution to this issue should be a two part one, and the two need to be decisively different then the other.
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    You are talking about deductions, that's not what I meant. I'm all for insentives for certain actions by corporations. I'm not for American companies being allowed to funnel profits into shell companies, in the Vigrin islands, and not having to pay a penny of taxes on that income. Income that should be taxed, because the business is operated and made successful by American resources. Those are the types of loop hose I would like to see addressed.
    Capital gains need a lower effective tax rate because it requires a significant amount of risk. Everyone hears about people who make money with capital gains. Nobody ever hears about the people who lose money that way. Not every investment pays off. Not every asset appreciates.

    Let me put it this way: Would you go to a casino's roulette wheel and put your money on a number 1-36 if the payoff was 10:1? Statistics say that you'd be a complete fool to do that. Why? It's simply not proportionate to risk. [/QUOTE]

    It seems to me that you are over simplifying the capital gains process. Short gains seriously the effect the stability of the market. The fluctuations they cause can be profitable in the short term for the investors, but can depreciate the long term value of a companies stocks. That continues practice can cause what I have heard it called a, "crisis of confidence" in the market. That's a problem that I think can be effected by incentivising long term sales, over short term. It seems to me the solution to this issue should be a two part one, and the two need to be decisively different then the other.[/QUOTE]

    The amount of day traders who are rattling a tin cup at truck stops is proof that short term assets really don't need harder tax implications placed upon it.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The amount of day traders who are rattling a tin cup at truck stops is proof that short term assets really don't need harder tax implications placed upon it.
    I disagree entirely, when you look at the companies who have been effected negatively by those types of short trades. Short trades are perpetuated by rumor, and assumption, to a level that can make it very difficult for a company to remain viable. Even if there is no evidence to support the claims of unstability of it's stock value.

    It's a totally different story when it comes to long term capital gains. That's why I say there has to be a dual approach.
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I disagree entirely, when you look at the companies who have been effected negatively by those types of short trades. Short trades are perpetuated by rumor, and assumption, to a level that can make it very difficult for a company to remain viable. Even if there is no evidence to support the claims of unstability of it's stock value.

    It's a totally different story when it comes to long term capital gains. That's why I say there has to be a dual approach.
    About the only way I'd push short term gains as normal income is in situations where you're cashing in stock options. That takes away the risk, and therefore could be legitimately considered normal income.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    About the only way I'd push short term gains as normal income is in situations where you're cashing in stock options. That takes away the risk, and therefore could be legitimately considered normal income.
    I get the concern with risk, and protecting the buyers ability to take that risk. My question would be, does the risk taken by the buyer, out weigh the risk imposed upon the company?
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I get the concern with risk, and protecting the buyers ability to take that risk. My question would be, does the risk taken by the buyer, out weigh the risk imposed upon the company?
    Once a stock is released as an IPO, it has zero bearing on the company itself except when it tries to reincorporate as treasury stock. They act independently of each other.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Once a stock is released as an IPO, it has zero bearing on the company itself except when it tries to reincorporate as treasury stock. They act independently of each other.
    So, would you say that there is no correlation between IPO under pricing, short term capital gains, and systemic miss information? I think from a big picture perspective, as you watch the treatment of a stock over a period of time, you do see a pattern emerge that is destabalizing. Would you not say the market has becoming substantialy unstable over just the last decade and a half? What would you say is the cause of that?
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    So, would you say that there is no correlation between IPO under pricing, short term capital gains, and systemic miss information?
    Very little.

    I think from a big picture perspective, as you watch the treatment of a stock over a period of time, you do see a pattern emerge that is destabalizing. Would you not say the market has becoming substantialy unstable over just the last decade and a half? What would you say is the cause of that?
    It's relatively stable now because it's not riding any bubbles or under a great deal of speculation. Since the stock market is fueled by human emotion, there has to be destabilization in human emotion to create that. You'll probably notice that, in about 6 months, another bubble will come along (I predict) in a certain sector. It will be due to human emotion reacting to a flux in demand.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    It's relatively stable now because it's not riding any bubbles or under a great deal of speculation. Since the stock market is fueled by human emotion, there has to be destabilization in human emotion to create that. You'll probably notice that, in about 6 months, another bubble will come along (I predict) in a certain sector. It will be due to human emotion reacting to a flux in demand.
    This is an absolutely accurate assesment! I would actually ask you take a step further. What if that bubble is something similar to the housing market that effects a large population of the country? Wouldn't there be a measured value in ensuring that those who who take those risks and perpetuate the severity of those bubbles, pay into a system set to act as a net in case of failure?

    Now I'm not saying that's the way the system works now. It's been totally manipulated. However, if it worked that way, would you see value in capital gains taxes for that purpose?
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    This is an absolutely accurate assesment! I would actually ask you take a step further. What if that bubble is something similar to the housing market that effects a large population of the country? Wouldn't there be a measured value in ensuring that those who who take those risks and perpetuate the severity of those bubbles, pay into a system set to act as a net in case of failure?
    Not to me. You invest at your own risk. Besides, what you described is more akin to putting the cart before the horse.

    Now I'm not saying that's the way the system works now. It's been totally manipulated. However, if it worked that way, would you see value in capital gains taxes for that purpose?
    I still would not. There still needs to be a "premium" of sorts. That's how money market tools work. It's the same reasoning behind why some people will invest in high-yield (junk) bonds.

    Capital gains get a bad reputation because all people see are these fat cat hedge fund managers. For every one of those, there are a thousand middle to upper-middle class people gambling with their money. I'm not about to penalize the vast majority for the actions of a tiny minority.

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