View Poll Results: Has Obama redefined Democratic positions and Liberalism?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, and I disapprove of many of the changes

    11 36.67%
  • Yes, and I approve of many of the changes

    1 3.33%
  • No, his policies are what liberalism really has always been

    5 16.67%
  • No, I see no changes from traditional liberal and Democratic principles

    6 20.00%
  • IDK/Other

    7 23.33%
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Thread: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

  1. #31
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfie View Post
    Did anyone ever figure out where Obama is actually from..

    He went to Ireland..claiming he was Irish...

    I don't remember any black tribes being indigenous to Ireland???
    Wow, what insight. I'll have to think about a post like yours for a while to fully understand it.

  2. #32
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    It was injured long before then. He's just mainstream.

    Know what hurt mainstream traditional liberalism? All those worthless Vietnam hippies who destroyed their brains with too many psychodelics getting old enough and becoming a major voting bloc.

    I like to think that if John Kennedy were alive today and meeting Obama, he'd slap Obama in the face and tell him to grow a pair.
    roflamo..

    your not serious.

    the hippies you talk of are long gone the way of being millionaires and could care less about politics.

    liberalism is being destroyed by corporate banishment of individuality in the young.


    it's not so much redefined the dems as the dems have the same problem as the republicans.

    loss of intellectualism in party politics.

    it's easier to knock the insanity going on in the republican mess...
    but the Dems are suffering from the same mediocrity it's just not as well honed in late night comedic venues.

  3. #33
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Wow, what insight. I'll have to think about a post like yours for a while to fully understand it.
    I would be more interested if you understand it?

    He claimed his name wasn't Obama....it was O'bama..

    And this being St Patricks day as well..tut tut..

  4. #34
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Sadly, an ideology's convictions will never be equal to their enthusiasm, but America's left-wing is in no contest with the right when it comes to who is worse at sticking to their principles. Conservatives are far worse.

    For example, health care reform is and has been a liberal position for decades. Obama achieved some kind of health care reform. Meanwhile, substantially reducing illegal immigration has been a conservative position for decades. When Republicans possessed congressional majorities and the oval office from 2002 and 2006, they never attempted such reform.
    I think what you have identified there is that A) there is less full overlap between "Republicans" and "Conservatives" than there is between "Democrats" and "Liberals"; and B) the strong pro-mass-immigration segment of conservatives who have a contentious view of Law to begin with.

  5. #35
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I think what you have identified there is that A) there is less full overlap between "Republicans" and "Conservatives" than there is between "Democrats" and "Liberals"; and B) the strong pro-mass-immigration segment of conservatives who have a contentious view of Law to begin with.
    Liberals are a marginalized group even in the Democratic Party, which is predominantly moderate with a conservative branch. Indeed, while outnumbered, the conservative elements are more powerful than the larger liberal wing, because the liberal wing is much more pliable.

    Republican and conservative interests more or less overlap because Republicans are happy to do the one thing conservatives show any real commitment to, which is obstructing liberal goals -- easy, since Democrats do most of the leg work themselves. The fact Republicans never took any action against illegal immigration when they held power derives from the fact that conservatives themselves don't really care about immigration issue. If they did, they would have severely punished Republicans for not taking action against illegal immigration and replaced them with politicians who did. Same with minimizing the role of the federal government and returning power to the states. Those issues make for great bulletin points, but nobody in the right seriously cares about them or would go to the bat to make sure their congressman gets it done.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 03-16-13 at 11:58 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  6. #36
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Those sorts of observations are hollow inventions of right-wing political culture. They have no persistent reality or meaning.

    That is a lofty way of saying, "but President Obama gives better speeches."

  7. #37
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    OK, I felt like this was totally a fair enough assessment of leftist beliefs until that last part, lol. This is where I get stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't disagree the may in which government operates now, totally works the way you describe. My problem is, I like government, just not an intrusive, inefficient and overbearing one. And this is where I get in trouble with my conservative friends, because as soon I say I think the federal government could have a effective role in people's lives, I apparently sprout horns and carry a pitch fork. (I'm not talking all conservatives, but it's happened enough times, I find it to be a pattern).
    Any conservative who says that the federal government couldn't have an effective role is leagues beyond hypocritical. Problem is that they are more concerned with private lives - not sure why, but they are. The only people who would disagree with that statement are anarchists. Even true libertarians recognize the need, and encourage the existence, of government to a limited capacity.

    Here is what I think on the questions I asked, you tell me if you think I'm now a lepper. Tax rates should be fair. You should get to pay less taxes because you can afford an army of lawyers who can find you every loop hole in the book. I think it's a bit of a cop out to simply say, well you make more, so your taxes should go up. We need to look much closer at the tax code, and make it more efficient, but yes, I don't think the wealthy are paying enough taxes in general. I think capital gains taxes (which I do not pretend to know a lot about), should remain higher on short term gains, then long term gains. I also think that those tax rates should be tied to inflation and interest rates, since all of them affect the stock market. As far as entitlement, that needs a whole overhaul, from top to bottom. Entitlement programs do not work the way they did 20 years ago. Do I think they can still be useful and helpful to improving the quality of life for citizens of this country, absolutely. However, they have been used to often to pander for votes, and have lost all semblance of being productive and insentivising people. Those programs just aren't what they were intended to be.

    So, you tell me, where does that put me on the political scale?
    I'd say you still sound pretty liberal. I don't know how people can say that the rich don't pay enough, unless you want to go back to the pre-JFK days when money was essentially redistributed through 90+% taxation brackets. America has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world. I also detest the liberal view on capital gains because they have no idea what the word "risk" means. The fact that you acknowledge the failure that is entitlement keeps you on the right side of sane.

  8. #38
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Any conservative who says that the federal government couldn't have an effective role is leagues beyond hypocritical. Problem is that they are more concerned with private lives - not sure why, but they are. The only people who would disagree with that statement are anarchists. Even true libertarians recognize the need, and encourage the existence, of government to a limited capacity.
    Yea, I'm not sure a lot of the far right wing would agree with your assessment, but that's how I have always felt. The frustration I have, is who we elect to public office these days. Elections have always been a popularity contest, but I think it's gotten way out of hand in the last couple decades. It seems like the electorate as a whole has stopped doing research on candidates they vote for, even on the local level. They seem, from my perspective, to base their votes on party affiliation, msm anchors they like, and maybe a debate. It's pretty disapointing.

    [/QUOTE]I'd say you still sound pretty liberal. I don't know how people can say that the rich don't pay enough, unless you want to go back to the pre-JFK days when money was essentially redistributed through 90+% taxation brackets. America has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world. I also detest the liberal view on capital gains because they have no idea what the word "risk" means. The fact that you acknowledge the failure that is entitlement keeps you on the right side of sane. [/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure how you can say the rich do pay enough, lol. Do you not think that there are an abundant amount of loopholes, and reckless deduductions that could be eliminated for the code and make the whole system simpler? I'm not saying raise taxes on wealthy, just because your wealthy. I'm saying you should be rewarded for finding loopholes in the rules. There is an immense amount of stupidity in the tax code that I think could be addressed with some pretty effectual results. When it comes to capital gains, I will admit, I don't have a comprehensive understanding of it. However, my basic understanding, says to me, that you should be rewarded for long term investments. I think short term investment in the stock market seems to invites quite a bit of unstable fluctuation in the market. That's been a long term problem for our economy over the last decade.

    I would say however, that as of yet, capital gains taxes have not effectively addressed the issue of our unstable stock market, so there may be a better solution to the problem. To me, it's one of those things that has the potential to be effective, but no Democrate has the political will to say that, and no Republican has the political will of work anyone interested in correcting that problem.
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

  9. #39
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I'm not sure how you can say the rich do pay enough, lol. Do you not think that there are an abundant amount of loopholes, and reckless deduductions that could be eliminated for the code and make the whole system simpler? I'm not saying raise taxes on wealthy, just because your wealthy. I'm saying you should be rewarded for finding loopholes in the rules. There is an immense amount of stupidity in the tax code that I think could be addressed with some pretty effectual results. When it comes to capital gains, I will admit, I don't have a comprehensive understanding of it. However, my basic understanding, says to me, that you should be rewarded for long term investments. I think short term investment in the stock market seems to invites quite a bit of unstable fluctuation in the market. That's been a long term problem for our economy over the last decade.

    I would say however, that as of yet, capital gains taxes have not effectively addressed the issue of our unstable stock market, so there may be a better solution to the problem. To me, it's one of those things that has the potential to be effective, but no Democrate has the political will to say that, and no Republican has the political will of work anyone interested in correcting that problem.
    Loopholes exist for a reason. They're meant to encourage spending in areas that normally a corporation would not. Do you really want a world where there are no corporate sponsored scholarships, charities, hiring breaks, investment, and any of a number of altruistic actions that corporations offer these days? I know I wouldn't.

    Capital gains need a lower effective tax rate because it requires a significant amount of risk. Everyone hears about people who make money with capital gains. Nobody ever hears about the people who lose money that way. Not every investment pays off. Not every asset appreciates.

    Let me put it this way: Would you go to a casino's roulette wheel and put your money on a number 1-36 if the payoff was 10:1? Statistics say that you'd be a complete fool to do that. Why? It's simply not proportionate to risk.

  10. #40
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The loyalty to Obama by Democrats is astonishing to me and appears unique to Obama.
    I seldom respond to posts by Joke104 but this is approaching his stupidest comment. And he has tried to push the stupid limit pretty hard.

    Did you forget G. W. Bush already? As if he held up the principles of conservatism.

    After watching the idiotic support of him by Reps. during his tenure, I am sure that Dems. have learned a thing or two about loyalty and how powerful it can be. Fragmenting the party through betrayal of the party leader does nothing to strengthen the party. It is instinct to rally around your leader even if they are doing something that you don't entirely agree with.

    Seems your post would be more accurate to ask, are democrats embarrased about having to resort to acting like Republicans to furthur their own causes?

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