View Poll Results: Has Obama redefined Democratic positions and Liberalism?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, and I disapprove of many of the changes

    11 36.67%
  • Yes, and I approve of many of the changes

    1 3.33%
  • No, his policies are what liberalism really has always been

    5 16.67%
  • No, I see no changes from traditional liberal and Democratic principles

    6 20.00%
  • IDK/Other

    7 23.33%
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Thread: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

  1. #11
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Of course they have meaning, and Obama "persistently" makes excuses. This brush-off is what's "hollow."
    Obama does have an unusual tendency to try and explain things and put them in context. I suppose that is easy to market as "making excuses."
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Obama does have an unusual tendency to try and explain things and put them in context. I suppose that is easy to mistake as "making excuses."
    It's funny how that "context" always makes it someone else's fault, as if he, as President, is powerless.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's funny how that "context" always makes it someone else's fault, as if he, as President, is powerless.
    What makes something somebody else's fault is the casual relation between that person and the outcome in question. It is purely a question of logical associations. Even if Obama had no problem assigning responsibility for various outcomes to the decisions and policies of the previous Administration or Congress, as far as the logical associations he draws goes, he is usually correct.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    Why do people think this? I have never understood why conservatives think that all 'the left' wants to do is increase the size of government? I understand that their is a difference between being conservative and being a republican. Yet I always seem to run into conservatives who think that all liberals are democrats and visa versa. I'm not saying that you do, you definitely chose the word left, not liberal. However, I would say I am definitely to the left, but I don't think increasing the size of the federal governement and income redistribution is the path forward. I just never understand why any and all ideas that come out of the left are instantly perceived as the left trying to increase the size of government and control peoples lives. I hear it all the time and it's so confusing to me.
    Gee, I can't imagine why us libertarians fight the left wing for expansion of government. It's not "think" - fiscal liberals are in favor of a giant redistribution machine. If you disagree, then maybe you should change your lean.

    Also, I don't see him saying the word "Democrat" at all. Leftists want larger government - either directly or by proxy. If they're honest, they'll voluntarily expand government, or they'll demand that government perform functions that require expansion by necessity.

    Do you not favor higher taxes for the rich? Do you not favor higher capital gains taxes? Do you not favor an expansion of (or at minimum, a retention of current levels of) entitlements in this country? If you can look me in the font and tell me that you don't agree with all those, I won't put you down as a rank-and-file ultra-liberal.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    It was injured long before then. He's just mainstream.

    Know what hurt mainstream traditional liberalism? All those worthless Vietnam hippies who destroyed their brains with too many psychodelics getting old enough and becoming a major voting bloc.

    I like to think that if John Kennedy were alive today and meeting Obama, he'd slap Obama in the face and tell him to grow a pair.
    I'd like to think that if Barry Goldwater saw what douches and losers the current crop of "Conservatives" are he would call them worthless traitors because that is what that they are.

  6. #16
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Has Obama redefined and even reversed many liberal and Democratic traditional stances and priorities?
    Yup, pretty much in the same way Bush changed the conservative and GOP traditional stances; bringing about a much harsher fascist front. Obama has done the same to the Democrats.

    Just another similarity between Bush and Obama.
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    I'd like to think that if Barry Goldwater saw what douches and losers the current crop of "Conservatives" are he would call the worthless traitors that they are.
    I don't consider Goldwater a conservative. He was probably the first true American libertarian.

    Conservatives don't trash Nixon the way he did.

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Those sorts of observations are hollow inventions of right-wing political culture. They have no persistent reality or meaning.
    It is modern liberalism that has no persistent reality or meaning.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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  9. #19
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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Gee, I can't imagine why us libertarians fight the left wing for expansion of government. It's not "think" - fiscal liberals are in favor of a giant redistribution machine. If you disagree, then maybe you should change your lean.

    Also, I don't see him saying the word "Democrat" at all. Leftists want larger government - either directly or by proxy. If they're honest, they'll voluntarily expand government, or they'll demand that government perform functions that require expansion by necessity.

    Do you not favor higher taxes for the rich? Do you not favor higher capital gains taxes? Do you not favor an expansion of (or at minimum, a retention of current levels of) entitlements in this country? If you can look me in the font and tell me that you don't agree with all those, I won't put you down as a rank-and-file ultra-liberal.
    OK, I felt like this was totally a fair enough assessment of leftist beliefs until that last part, lol. This is where I get stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't disagree the may in which government operates now, totally works the way you describe. My problem is, I like government, just not an intrusive, inefficient and overbearing one. And this is where I get in trouble with my conservative friends, because as soon I say I think the federal government could have a effective role in people's lives, I apparently sprout horns and carry a pitch fork. (I'm not talking all conservatives, but it's happened enough times, I find it to be a pattern).

    Here is what I think on the questions I asked, you tell me if you think I'm now a lepper. Tax rates should be fair. You should get to pay less taxes because you can afford an army of lawyers who can find you every loop hole in the book. I think it's a bit of a cop out to simply say, well you make more, so your taxes should go up. We need to look much closer at the tax code, and make it more efficient, but yes, I don't think the wealthy are paying enough taxes in general. I think capital gains taxes (which I do not pretend to know a lot about), should remain higher on short term gains, then long term gains. I also think that those tax rates should be tied to inflation and interest rates, since all of them affect the stock market. As far as entitlement, that needs a whole overhaul, from top to bottom. Entitlement programs do not work the way they did 20 years ago. Do I think they can still be useful and helpful to improving the quality of life for citizens of this country, absolutely. However, they have been used to often to pander for votes, and have lost all semblance of being productive and insentivising people. Those programs just aren't what they were intended to be.

    So, you tell me, where does that put me on the political scale?
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Has Obama harmed traditional liberalism and Democrats' positions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    What makes something somebody else's fault is the casual relation between that person and the outcome in question. It is purely a question of logical associations. Even if Obama had no problem assigning responsibility for various outcomes to the decisions and policies of the previous Administration or Congress, as far as the logical associations he draws goes, he is usually correct.
    Right, because after all the times he told people to hold him accountable, all the times he said he "owned" it, it was still always someone else's fault, no matter how long they've been gone, and how long he's been running things. You apparently lap it up like a kitten's milk, though.

    A leader takes responsibility. And that even includes times when thinks aren't actually his fault. Why? He's the guy in charge, and that's what effective leaders do. Constantly blaming others is weak, weak "leadership."
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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