View Poll Results: How much do you care about who the next Pope is?

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  • I care a lot. It means everything to me.

    8 5.76%
  • I could care less.

    70 50.36%
  • What's a pope?

    5 3.60%
  • I care, but it doesn't need as much press as it's getting.

    23 16.55%
  • Who won the hockey game last night is far more important.

    20 14.39%
  • other - please explain

    27 19.42%
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Thread: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

  1. #341
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There's no point in being tolerant of the intolerable.
    Well, at least we know where greater human understanding won't be coming from.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  2. #342
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Well, at least we know where greater human understanding won't be coming from.
    Accomodationists. Yes, we know. Stand up for reality or be buried under the inevitable flood of irrationality.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #343
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There's no point in being tolerant of the intolerable.
    Ah, an admirable Freudian slip. Your subconscious mind understands that declaring more than a billion people 99.999999% of whom you had never met "intolerant" would be pretty idiotic. So...they are "intolerable", as in: a certain bigot cannot stand them.
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 03-14-13 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #344
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Ah, an admirable Freudian slip. Your subconscious mind understands that declaring more than a billion people 99.999999% of whom you had never met "intolerant" would be pretty idiotic. So...they are "intolerable", as in: a certain bigot cannot stand them.
    There was a time when most people thought the earth was flat. They were all wrong. Stop playing the logical fallacy game. No matter how many people believe a thing, that thing is either true or not true based on evidence, the people are totally irrelevant.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #345
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    The only true religion is paganism. When they elect a pagan pope I will go to church.

  6. #346
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There was a time when most people thought the earth was flat. They were all wrong. Stop playing the logical fallacy game. No matter how many people believe a thing, that thing is either true or not true based on evidence, the people are totally irrelevant.
    What on earth (flat or otherwise) are you talking about? You claim that Catholics are intolerant, all of them. At least that's how it sounds. How do you know that?

    In the days long gone, when I was a Catholic, I was not intolerant - and neither were most people around me; true, you cannot be a good Catholic and engage in homosexual sex - or have an abortion. But you don't have to be a Catholic.

    Back then, as a Catholic, and now, as an atheist, I had never doubted that citizens of a free country have the right to be gay - or have abortions, in the first trimester.

    There are intolerant people among Catholics, among Jews, among atheists - well, I am sorry for their shriveled little minds. But why project their individual failings on everyone else under the same "religion" label? Irrational collectivism at its worst.

  7. #347
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    What on earth (flat or otherwise) are you talking about? You claim that Catholics are intolerant, all of them. At least that's how it sounds. How do you know that?
    I didn't say they were intolerant, I said they were irrational. I said that the only thing that anyone ought to be tolerant of are things that are tolerable. I don't see anyone crying for us to tolerate pedophiles or serial killers. That's downright stupid. Religion, by it's very nature, is harmful to humanity. That doesn't mean every single person who practices religion is harmful, any more than every single person who looks at kiddy porn is actually directly harming children, but anyone who is not part of the solution, the end of religion, is part of the problem. As such, I have no responsibility to respect or admire anyone who chooses to fill their head with nonsensical junk.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #348
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I didn't say they were intolerant, I said they were irrational.
    Or: "they" are a lot of different people in different states of mind. You are simplifying things to the point of absurdity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Religion, by it's very nature, is harmful to humanity.
    Sez who? People who promoted this point of view most vigorously - the likes of Marat and Lenin - were by far more harmful to humanity than any bloody inquisition.

    I would agree that religion-based morality is deeply deficient. And religious belief certainly can lend itslef to a mass psychosis - but so can any "secular" cult. Look at the adoring, grieving faces of "ordinary Venezuelans" mourning a two-bit thug and cheap demagogue as if he were a messiah three times over. Is it "religion" or not "religion"? Who cares? It is the same psychological phenomenon. ( I don't even want to go into much scarier examples from the recent Russian or Chinese history)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    anyone who is not part of the solution, the end of religion, is part of the problem.
    The end of religion would not be any kind of "solution". It would be an end of the human mind. We are naturally religious. It is a result of our evolution as a species capable of rational thought in the environment where there's not enough valid information to make rational thought sufficient for survival. The personal journey from crude faith to religious sophistication and inevitable doubt, to calm and happy atheism cannot be forced. Every man has to do it on his own. There are no substitutes.

    Enough with crusades and holy wars already - Christian, Muslim, or "atheistic".

  9. #349
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I didn't say they were intolerant, I said they were irrational. I said that the only thing that anyone ought to be tolerant of are things that are tolerable. I don't see anyone crying for us to tolerate pedophiles or serial killers. That's downright stupid. Religion, by it's very nature, is harmful to humanity. That doesn't mean every single person who practices religion is harmful, any more than every single person who looks at kiddy porn is actually directly harming children, but anyone who is not part of the solution, the end of religion, is part of the problem. As such, I have no responsibility to respect or admire anyone who chooses to fill their head with nonsensical junk.
    I have heard St. Thomas Aquinas called many things. Irrational isn't one of them.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  10. #350
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    Re: Do you REALLY care about the next Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    Or: "they" are a lot of different people in different states of mind. You are simplifying things to the point of absurdity.
    No, I'm really not. Do they believe in something for which they have no objective evidence? Is their belief wholly emotional, based on what they wish was true instead of what is actually true? Then they are irrational. It's not over-simplified, it's simply true.

    Sez who? People who promoted this point of view most vigorously - the likes of Marat and Lenin - were by far more harmful to humanity than any bloody inquisition.
    I disagree. First off, Marat and Lenin and Mao and whoever else you want to pull out acted not from their atheism, but from their political fervor. You cannot find a single quote from any of those people who said that they are killing anyone because their atheism commands them to do so. It just can't be done. However, you can easily find quotes, not only from recent entries like Hitler, but throughout history of killers specifically crediting religion and their belief in a god with their heinous crimes. Further, religion was responsible for things like the Dark Ages, where human innovation and ingenuity virtually stopped for hundreds of years. Imagine where we would be today if it wasn't for religion putting the brakes on advancement!

    I would agree that religion-based morality is deeply deficient. And religious belief certainly can lend itslef to a mass psychosis - but so can any "secular" cult. Look at the adoring, grieving faces of "ordinary Venezuelans" mourning a two-bit thug and cheap demagogue as if he were a messiah three times over. Is it "religion" or not "religion"? Who cares? It is the same psychological phenomenon. ( I don't even want to go into much scarier examples from the recent Russian or Chinese history)
    But as soon as you're using cult-like behavior, you're no longer being rational and irrationality is at the core of many of man's problems. When people feel the need to act entirely out of emotion and desire and not out of fact and truth, that's where problems come in. It's not only a problem of religion, but it certainly is a demonstrably problem of religion.

    The end of religion would not be any kind of "solution". It would be an end of the human mind. We are naturally religious. It is a result of our evolution as a species capable of rational thought in the environment where there's not enough valid information to make rational thought sufficient for survival. The personal journey from crude faith to religious sophistication and inevitable doubt, to calm and happy atheism cannot be forced. Every man has to do it on his own. There are no substitutes.

    Enough with crusades and holy wars already - Christian, Muslim, or "atheistic".
    Humanity, unlike all the other animals on the planet, has the ability to override their impulses and emotions and instincts and make decisions based on evidence. It's what separates us from lower species. Emotions and the like certainly have their place, but when people insist on running their lives by them and nothing else, how are they any better than a cow or a pig? What are they advancing for the human species that their dog couldn't do equally as well? People need to be pushed to improve themselves, to be responsible for themselves and to be accountable for what they actually do. While you're right that everyone has to make the decision to throw away irrational beliefs, just like every child eventually has to put away a childish belief in Santa Claus, it's something that has to be enshrined in our cultural identity. Just as we wouldn't accept a 35-year old that believed in Santa Claus, we shouldn't accept a 35-year old who believes in God. Both beliefs are stupid and just as an adult believing in Santa Claus is harmful to the individual, belief in a god is harmful as well, but even worse because our beliefs inform our actions and people who believe in imaginary friends in the sky tend to vote the way their religious leaders tell them to. They're gullible sheep and they shape the way society operates. If there was a massive Santa Claus cult that constantly voted for more presents for all on Christmas morning, even if it bankrupted the nation, that would be asinine. How is what the religious in this country do any better?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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