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Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years old?

Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years old?


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Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

The CD sales are more for the record company than the artist. ;)
See I'm just not worried about any of that. That's between the artist and the label.

If I want a song, I'll get it, and the main reason I find free music is because I just don't want the hassle of using cloud services or the iWorld. I just want the song, quick and easy, no bull****, no accounts, no EULAs, no TOSs, no registration or authorized devices or other bull****. Just the song and I walk away until I want another one.

If there was an artist I wanted music from and they had a site where I could drop a credit card and get any of their songs in an open MP3 format for like 20cents each, I'd pay them even if I could get it for free elsewhere if it's less hassle.

It's easier to get pirated music then it is to buy legitimately, and ease of access is the only reason I get pirated music.
 
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Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Do you believe it's wrong to download such shows from unauthorized sources such as torrents?

If you can't buy it in the shop, then it's not wrong. If something is not available on the market, how is one supposed to purchase it even if one is willing to?

Now, another thing is the copyright period. I personally think it's waaay too long.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

I guess my issue with piracy has always been -- was it all "ooh piracy sucks and I'm butthurt" when I videotaped a TV show on my VCR? How is it any different to videotape Game of Thrones while you are working, and watch it the next day, and download it from a website and watch it the next day?

Same as recording songs off the radio, onto cassettes. Y'all do remember that technology, don't you? Is that music piracy, to record a song off the radio onto a blank tape?

What's the difference??
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

If you can't buy it in the shop, then it's not wrong. If something is not available on the market, how is one supposed to purchase it even if one is willing to?

Now, another thing is the copyright period. I personally think it's waaay too long.

I was thinking about potential ways we could restructure intellectual copyright laws and wondering what effect they would have.

What purpose do copyright laws serve? I guess to let people think new stuff up, sell their idea and make enough money to keep making new stuff. If people can't make money thinking up stuff, they'll have to do something else and we won't have any new stuff.

If that's the point of copyright laws, then should we allow them to extend past the point where the creator makes money? If patents expired once you made a $X profit on the idea, wouldn't creators be forced to make new content?

What would the world look like if the exclusive right to Star Wars, Windows 7 and Zoloft expired after either ten years or making $100m in profit?
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

You would think that really old TV shows (40 years or more) would have expired copyrights, but that's often not the case. Do you believe it's wrong to download such shows from unauthorized sources such as torrents?

Just to be clear, the question is about shows 40 years old or more which do not have expired copyrights.
I don't think it's immoral at all. In fact, I watch most of my TV streaming online illegally. The reason for this is simple: there is no good service to stream everything I want. For instance, if I wanted to legally watch Game of Thrones, I couldn't, because I'd have to have cable, and HBO, just for that one show. The TV and movie industry is also going out of their way to block the rights to streaming services. That's why you can't stream new movies on Netflix.

Second, the few services that MIGHT be acceptable, have blocks for foreign customers. (I live in Germany) I can't even watch Hulu like a normal American. So what option do I have?

When they offer the service the world actually wants, a subscription based stream service for all, or near all tv shows, I'll gladly spend my money. I will not spend $50 a month for a 1000 channels so that I can watch 5 or 6 shows.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Pretty uncomfortable with piracy, but there do some to be cases where it is fair. Like if a product was never licensed for sale overseas, or if the terms of service are uniquely abusive, or if the product is not readily accessible.

Yeah, here's the problem with that.

Most forms of legal online content ARE uniquely abusive.

They're basically ticking bombs. They have DRM that can cause them spontaneously stop working for a variety of different reasons: the DRM provider goes defunct, the file type the DRM applies to goes defunct, the company just decides to pull some of its content, or your individual account, etc, etc, etc.

In addition to that, it can stop you from making backups for yourself in case of data loss. It can stop you from using the content if you switch devices. It can do all kinds of things that prohibit people from reasonable personal use.

So basically, they expect you to pay full-price for something you're really only loaning for an unknown period of time. That is insane. And that is why a lot of people pirate. They may not realize exactly what's happening, but they do know that they didn't get what they paid for, and they paid an insane amount for the pleasure.

Mostly, this is purely for the benefit of the middlemen. They're taking home most of the cash at the end of the day. So what you're denying the artist is actually insultingly small. They're being conned as much as you are, and the middlemen keep them in that position by telling them if they go DRM-free, people will just stop buying anything at all.

And that is a big lie.

Some artists are starting to reject the fear rhetoric of their managers, and simply releasing their content without DRM on their own, or for free with the option to donate. Many find that their revenue increases dramatically.

O'Reilly drops ebook DRM, sees 104% increase in sales - Boing Boing

Louis CK: Over $1 Million In Sales In Just 12 Days For DRM-Free Download | Techdirt

http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/06/emi-says-drm-free-music-is-selling-well/

People WANT to support the artists they love. They really do. And if you give them a way to do that without getting completely ripped off, they will.
 
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Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Yeah, here's the problem with that.

Most forms of legal online content ARE uniquely abusive.

They're basically ticking bombs. They have DRM that can cause them spontaneously stop working for a variety of different reasons: the DRM provider goes defunct, the file type the DRM applies to goes defunct, the company just decides to pull some of its content, or your individual account, etc, etc, etc.

In addition to that, it can stop you from making backups for yourself in case of data loss. It can stop you from using the content if you switch devices. It can do all kinds of things that prohibit people from reasonable personal use.

So basically, they expect you to pay full-price for something you're really only loaning for an unknown period of time. That is insane. And that is why a lot of people pirate. They may not realize exactly what's happening, but they do know that they didn't get what they paid for, and they paid an insane amount for the pleasure.

Mostly, this is purely for the benefit of the middlemen. They're taking home most of the cash at the end of the day. So what you're denying the artist is actually insultingly small. They're being conned as much as you are, and the middlemen keep them in that position by telling them if they go DRM-free, people will just stop buying anything at all.

And that is a big lie.

Some artists are starting to reject the fear rhetoric of their managers, and simply releasing their content without DRM on their own, or for free with the option to donate. Many find that their revenue increases dramatically.

O'Reilly drops ebook DRM, sees 104% increase in sales - Boing Boing

Louis CK: Over $1 Million In Sales In Just 12 Days For DRM-Free Download | Techdirt

EMI says DRM-free music is selling well | Ars Technica

This is a perfect example. I run into books ALL THE TIME, that I really need for work, yet they do not exist on this continent, and are not sold in e-book format. So what do I do? I hope on the piratebay, and find that same book in PDF file. How can the pirating world consistently have MORE content than the legal world?
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

This is a perfect example. I run into books ALL THE TIME, that I really need for work, yet they do not exist on this continent, and are not sold in e-book format. So what do I do? I hope on the piratebay, and find that same book in PDF file. How can the pirating world consistently have MORE content than the legal world?

Yup, that's another problem: either censoring information by country, or making the format compatibility different for each country, requiring you to purchase it again if you ever move. Especially popular with DVD's, and increasingly so with e-books.

Really, there's SO many problems with content restrictions. The stuff I listed is really just the beginning. It says something that virtually every person here has had problems either getting or using legal content.

The answer is truly for artists to educate themselves and reject all of this fearmongering that is designed to rip off both them and their fans.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Yup, that's another problem: either censoring information by country, or making the format compatibility different for each country, requiring you to purchase it again if you ever move. Especially popular with DVD's, and increasingly so with e-books.

Really, there's SO many problems with content restrictions. The stuff I listed is really just the beginning. It says something that virtually every person here has had problems either getting or using legal content.

The answer is truly for artists to educate themselves and reject all of this fearmongering that is designed to rip off both them and their fans.

Precisely. When I'm looking for something I generally try to find it legal first, but most of the time I run into the country restrictions or lack of content, or other major issues and just turn to piracy instead.

The future is things like Spotify. I used to pirate a LOT of music. Now, I think I might have downloaded 1 album in the past year since I've had it. (wasn't on spotify) It doesn't cost a cent and I get all the music I want. If I want to pay more for no commercials or higher quality content, I can. I listen to music 24/7.

This is the type of service that needs to be developed for books and movies. The cable companies need to be cut out of the mix altogether. On demand streaming via a subscription is the future.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Precisely. When I'm looking for something I generally try to find it legal first, but most of the time I run into the country restrictions or lack of content, or other major issues and just turn to piracy instead.

The future is things like Spotify. I used to pirate a LOT of music. Now, I think I might have downloaded 1 album in the past year since I've had it. (wasn't on spotify) It doesn't cost a cent and I get all the music I want. If I want to pay more for no commercials or higher quality content, I can. I listen to music 24/7.

This is the type of service that needs to be developed for books and movies. The cable companies need to be cut out of the mix altogether. On demand streaming via a subscription is the future.

I think it really depends on the media type. And artists need to find a model that works for them too. C.K., O'Reilly, Doctorow, Palmer, and many others are paving the way. Of course, there is probably a way to combine those two things to make it profitable for both the service and the artists.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

I think it really depends on the media type. And artists need to find a model that works for them too. C.K., O'Reilly, Doctorow, Palmer, and many others are paving the way. Of course, there is probably a way to combine those two things to make it profitable for both the service and the artists.

For complete and total on demand ability to every show, and every movie out there, I would pay up to 50 bucks a month. So essentially, as much as I would for a full cable service.

I think most people would share that sentiment. There's plenty of money to be made, it just needs to be in a different business mdoel.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

This is a perfect example. I run into books ALL THE TIME, that I really need for work, yet they do not exist on this continent, and are not sold in e-book format. So what do I do? I hope on the piratebay, and find that same book in PDF file. How can the pirating world consistently have MORE content than the legal world?

Because the "legal world" is 30 years behind the technological curve. The reason that there is piracy is not because people want to steal, but because lack of access to the content at reasonable prices. It is simple, provide access at reasonable prices and piracy will fall dramatically. Spotify proves this in Europe... at least till they were forced to change their business model by the "legal world".... morons.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Because the "legal world" is 30 years behind the technological curve. The reason that there is piracy is not because people want to steal, but because lack of access to the content at reasonable prices. It is simple, provide access at reasonable prices and piracy will fall dramatically. Spotify proves this in Europe... at least till they were forced to change their business model by the "legal world".... morons.

My absolute favorite example of this is The Daily Show. You can go on their website, even in europe, and stream the show the very next day. However, it's garbage quality, and long load times. I jump on the pirated stream, and I get ultra HD quality, and no load times. Ridiculous.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

It's illegal, I wouldn't call it immoral.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

My absolute favorite example of this is The Daily Show. You can go on their website, even in europe, and stream the show the very next day. However, it's garbage quality, and long load times. I jump on the pirated stream, and I get ultra HD quality, and no load times. Ridiculous.

My favorite is the following... utterly stupid. World Cup in Football. In Spain you can as a Dane pay to watch Danish Radio TV via satellite.. costs an insane amount each year, but it is possible. Now during the World Cup they showed the games involving Denmark, but the signal to Spain was cut because DR TV did not have the rights in Spain... despite the signal being available in Spain on terrestrial TV (with Spanish commentators), and being available on British satellite TV (with English commentators) and being available on German satellite TV (with German commentators) all unencrypted and free... wtf?

Another case many moons ago.. Stargate SG1, Star Trek The Next Generation and DS9 and later Voyager. In Denmark the TV bosses in their wisdom did not think this "children's" program would have enough viewers to justify them buying the rights, so Denmark never got these shows when they were at their prime or even after. And yes they categorized them as children s programs..and the 10 episodes of Next Gen they did show 3 years after the show ended... were shown at 5pm as a children's program... a hour before most fans and adults came home from work... /clap. Of course there was no one who watched it. Anyways...the pro-copywrite people say.. well buy the DVDs!.. sure if they were available in Denmark, which they were not.. only the US versions, which were imported at a high price.. and of course which could not legally be played in the Danish/European DVD players.. Only years after the shows went off the air did the DVDs arrive and the shows started poping up on TV.... What did fans do in the mean time? They pirated the shows of course..... it was that or wait a decade to get it on TV..

No the present copywrite laws are bull**** and should be scrapped and new ones with the Internet and online streaming in mind should be put in place. What these morons at the big media companies dont seem to understand, is people want access to content the way they want and when they want.. and not when the media companies tell us or allow us.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

in my opinion, no. torrents only exist in the first place because the entertainment monopoly ****ed up and didn't respond to demand in time. people pay a ****load for cable, and they want to watch what they want when they want wherever they want. cable refuses to do that, instead making us buy channels we don't want or need. the result? torrents.

I don't use them, though. I just choose to not watch most of the shows. anyone using torrents should know that the same cable monopoly that won't let you watch what you want is now also monitoring your internet use, looking for torrent downloads. if they catch you, you go into the six strike system, which ends up with you losing internet access or worse. the deck is stacked heavily in their favor. all these years later, and still suing the VCR.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

Why should the patent property right ever expire?

Here is why it is important, we now live in a world where low information voters have been convinced that they have a right to the personal property of others simply because they want that property and the government convinces them that the property was originally stolen from them anyway.

Taking away personal property rights leads to the government achieving it's goal of taking away not only personal property rights, but also real property rights (Land). The goal of liberal governments is, when you die, to take away your ability to will your estate to your children. The government wants your entire estate, both real (Land) and personal property (Money and possessions), to go to the government for redistribution to others. You and your descendents would lose everything. Those others, the recipients of what you have worked for, would be the Liberal designated favorites such as new immigrants and other low information Liberal voters, who's votes would be purchased with your family's money.

The result would be that, no matter how hard you worked, you would never acquire anything of lasting value for your children or descendents. When you died, the Liberals would steal everything you had and give it away to Liberal voters. Don't let that Liberal camel get it's head in the tent.

You are thinking: I just wanted to record a damn CD!

Here is why property rights are now immediately important. In the Nineties, Jessie Jackson wanted the government to take all of the pensions of white people and put them in a big pot for redistribution to blacks. Jackson stated that whites owed that money to blacks. More recently, Obama's academic/economic advisors have been urging Obama to steal all present 401k and pension plans and pay America's debts and redistribute that money to the low information voters. That is why property rights are an immediate issue.

Always respect the property rights or others. The Obama government will steal yours also.

jack-d-ripper.jpg

Not everything comes back to black people trying to steal your precious bodily fluids, you know.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

The future is things like Spotify.

...except for the problem of audio watermarking: Universal’s Audible Watermark | Matt Montag

Maybe people think the audio quality problems are due to some kind of lossy compression, as I did, and ignore it completely, or blame the streaming service/distributor. The problem here is that the UMG watermark degrades the audio to about the equivalent of a 96 kbit MP3. My guess is that if consumers were informed about what is going on, they would care. Especially those who pay full retail price for digital downloads advertised as lossless audio.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

...except for the problem of audio watermarking: Universal’s Audible Watermark | Matt Montag

Maybe people think the audio quality problems are due to some kind of lossy compression, as I did, and ignore it completely, or blame the streaming service/distributor. The problem here is that the UMG watermark degrades the audio to about the equivalent of a 96 kbit MP3. My guess is that if consumers were informed about what is going on, they would care. Especially those who pay full retail price for digital downloads advertised as lossless audio.

I don't care. The tv/movie streams I get aren't 1080p blu-ray quality either, but they're good enough. There should be different pay tiers for different quality levels. For those people like me who just like regular Spotify, the current model works. For a little extra cash you should be able to get HD quality audio. (They say with the subscription you do get that, but I don't know)
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

You would think that really old TV shows (40 years or more) would have expired copyrights, but that's often not the case. Do you believe it's wrong to download such shows from unauthorized sources such as torrents?

Just to be clear, the question is about shows 40 years old or more which do not have expired copyrights.

Meh, I do it out of convenience. Not going to put money into something unless I know I'm going to like it. I'll download something to see what it's like. If I like and it's available for sale at that time, I'll buy it. If not, then I'm not stuck with a 20 dollar pile of ****.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

More directly on topic:

Copyright laws were invented for print media (books, etc.) when access to equipment to duplicate print media was quite pricey. It was extremely difficult for the average person to reproduce and then redistribute an entire book.

Today, it's as simple as a few mouse clicks and a few minutes (or less) to copy and redistribute precise copies of whole movies and TV shows. I'm not sure that was the original intent of letting copyrights expire. It isn't like sampling where a small portion of a previously recorded work is incorporated into a new piece of art. This is simply duplication, wholesale.

To the issue of downloading: there is no media I am so devoted to that I feel I have to download it illegally or else I feel I'm being cheated by anyone. I love the show Breaking Bad[/i], but even at the most rabid peak of my infatuation, I never dreamed of downloading any episodes illegally.

If you feel like you're entitled to any of the products of pop culture, there's something wrong with you. It's entertainment, nothing more.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

This thread immeadiately makes me think of George Lucas. His holiday special is garbage, but he won't release it. What most people know is that you cannot see the original star wars anymore.

It is his right.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

This one used to be a clear answer before all the changes to the Copyright Law of 1976. When I started filing copyrights in 1993, there was a clearly defined period of time for works copyrighted before January 1, 1978. It's been 10 years since I really attempted to read through the law and that clear definition is gone. So my best guess is that old works have either a 76 or 95 year period in which they are still protected under the new law, without having to have a new copyright filed.

In saying that, the way the law is written now, everything is protected for 70 years after the author's death.
 
Re: Is it immoral to download from unauthorized sources (c) TV shows over 39 years ol

...except for the problem of audio watermarking: Universal’s Audible Watermark | Matt Montag

Maybe people think the audio quality problems are due to some kind of lossy compression, as I did, and ignore it completely, or blame the streaming service/distributor. The problem here is that the UMG watermark degrades the audio to about the equivalent of a 96 kbit MP3. My guess is that if consumers were informed about what is going on, they would care. Especially those who pay full retail price for digital downloads advertised as lossless audio.

Yea but you dont own your digital download.... Apple owns all music bought on iTunes for example... you are just renting it. And the future was Spotify till the American media companies gutted the original version because it was the only way Spotify could get access to the US market.
 
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