View Poll Results: Should We Always Support the Troops

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    36 63.16%
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Thread: Should We Always Support the Troops?

  1. #1
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    Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Despite what they do? Even if they are in unjust wars? Even if they are committing massacres?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Despite what they do? Even if they are in unjust wars? Even if they are committing massacres?
    We should always support them and they don't commit massacures.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    We should always support them and they don't commit massacures.
    But if/when they do?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Whether a war is just or unjust is not decided by the soldier, but by the government, the politicians. Therefore you should not hold individual soldiers accountable for fighting in a war you consider "unjust" (subjective judgement to some degree always); they are simply obeying orders and doing their jobs.

    Massacres are another matter... but then again one must understand the combat environment to realize that these things are not always as cut-and-dried as the media presents them. The "fog of war" often makes it hard to distinguish and protect civilians; doubly so when the enemy wears no uniform and deliberately hides among the civilian populace.

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Despite what they do? Even if they are in unjust wars? Even if they are committing massacres?
    We must support the troop, but mission is something else. I didn't support the mission in Iraq, but I pulled for the troops all the way Home.


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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Whether a war is just or unjust is not decided by the soldier, but by the government, the politicians. Therefore you should not hold individual soldiers accountable for fighting in a war you consider "unjust" (subjective judgement to some degree always); they are simply obeying orders and doing their jobs.
    So under the scenario that troops are used against citizens, we should still support them and only hold the politicians accountable?

    In other words, troops can judge the morality of their actions. If they are doing something immoral, I don't buy the argument that they are unaccountable because someone else told them to do it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So under the scenario that troops are used against citizens, we should still support them and only hold the politicians accountable?

    In other words, troops can judge the morality of their actions. If they are doing something immoral, I don't buy the argument that they are unaccountable because someone else told them to do it.


    I concede that you have a point. Certainly "I was just obeying orders" was not considered an acceptible excuse for the Death Camp guards at the Nuremberg trials.

    I was going off the term you used, "unjust war". Thing is, this term has been used and abused a lot over the past 40 years, and while there is a specific an enumerated definition it isn't one everyone necessarily agrees on.

    Lots of people have called Iraq and/or Afganistan "unjust wars". Shall we let the troops themselves decide before every deployment whether a conflict is just or not, and decline to participate if they think the latter? How would you guard against those who might say they think the war unjust, when they are really motivated by a desire not to be deployed to a combat zone?

    It gets complicated.

    When the troops are obeying orders and performing their function WITHIN REASON, I tend to say "support them" even if you have disagreement with the current gov't policy on whatever conflict we're talking about. If it gets UNREASONABLE, like asking American soldiers to violate Posse Commitatus and fire on American civilians, we've moved to a very different level of argument here.

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Whether a war is just or unjust is not decided by the soldier, but by the government, the politicians. Therefore you should not hold individual soldiers accountable for fighting in a war you consider "unjust" (subjective judgement to some degree always); they are simply obeying orders and doing their jobs.

    Massacres are another matter... but then again one must understand the combat environment to realize that these things are not always as cut-and-dried as the media presents them. The "fog of war" often makes it hard to distinguish and protect civilians; doubly so when the enemy wears no uniform and deliberately hides among the civilian populace.

    I believe this is one of the few instances when I have disagreed with you Goshin. Soldiers have the choice to fight and even join the military when motives are fuzzy or questionable. They may not like the consequences of that choice but that choice is there. Blindly following orders or even questioning the orders but choosing to follow those orders is still a choice of the individual and I do not give them a pass just for being patriotic. They can of course make whatever decision they feel is right but that does not mean I will support them in it. Myself I believe every major military campaign we have been in the last 60 has not been about protecting our nation but instead was politically driven by greed or lust for power. These I cannot support.

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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    We should always support them and they don't commit massacures.
    No Massacures? Are you sure? I look forward to a good massacure every now and again.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I concede that you have a point. Certainly "I was just obeying orders" was not considered an acceptible excuse for the Death Camp guards at the Nuremberg trials.

    I was going off the term you used, "unjust war". Thing is, this term has been used and abused a lot over the past 40 years, and while there is a specific an enumerated definition it isn't one everyone necessarily agrees on.
    Very true, language has been abused for a long time.

    Lots of people have called Iraq and/or Afganistan "unjust wars". Shall we let the troops themselves decide before every deployment whether a conflict is just or not, and decline to participate if they think the latter? How would you guard against those who might say they think the war unjust, when they are really motivated by a desire not to be deployed to a combat zone?

    It gets complicated.
    It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If people don't want to go to a combat zone, for any reason, then they should not be forced to go.

    When the troops are obeying orders and performing their function WITHIN REASON, I tend to say "support them" even if you have disagreement with the current gov't policy on whatever conflict we're talking about. If it gets UNREASONABLE, like asking American soldiers to violate Posse Commitatus and fire on American civilians, we've moved to a very different level of argument here.
    And when troops are invading sovereign countries that have done nothing to us, especially their citizens, then that's something that should be decried.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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