View Poll Results: Should We Always Support the Troops

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  • Yes

    36 63.16%
  • No

    21 36.84%
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Thread: Should We Always Support the Troops?

  1. #211
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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Then I'd go to jail. I don't like that option.



    I vote for no such person. In fact, I don't vote.



    How do you figure? Taxpayers are coerced into paying for it. Soldiers VOLUNTEER to join the organization that is responsible for the actions.
    Using a hypothetical example. Soldier A decides to join the military to pay for school. He would prefer serving in the military than working at some crappy job to save up money over a couple of years or taking out student loans. So you're saying that if he joins for that reason...he support US foreign policy. He should change his plan in protest of US foreign policy.

    You on the other hand are absolved from any moral guilt since you decide to pay taxes or go to jail...even though it is funding those same wars you disagree with.

    I believe both are pretty rational decisions and have nothing to do with support of US foreign policy but I think if somone joining the war for plenty of reasons is automatically supportive of US foreign policy with that decision I believe anybody that pays taxes does as well.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  2. #212
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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Using a hypothetical example. Soldier A decides to join the military to pay for school. He would prefer serving in the military than working at some crappy job to save up money over a couple of years or taking out student loans. So you're saying that if he joins for that reason...he support US foreign policy. He should change his plan in protest of US foreign policy.
    Yes. If you join a company, you know what your job is. That's like saying (though it's not perfectly comparable) that a guy who starts dealing drugs to pay for school is blameless. In both cases, you know what you're getting into. It doesn't matter your rationale if the job you perform is immoral.

    You on the other hand are absolved from any moral guilt since you decide to pay taxes or go to jail...even though it is funding those same wars you disagree with.
    I wouldn't go to jail if I don't join the military. I go to jail if I don't pay taxes. Huge difference.

    I believe both are pretty rational decisions and have nothing to do with support of US foreign policy but I think if somone joining the war for plenty of reasons is automatically supportive of US foreign policy with that decision I believe anybody that pays taxes does as well.
    Are we going to say that the person who goes into a company that deals weapons to foreign dictators is absolved from the actions of that company?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #213
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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Yes. If you join a company, you know what your job is. That's like saying (though it's not perfectly comparable) that a guy who starts dealing drugs to pay for school is blameless. In both cases, you know what you're getting into. It doesn't matter your rationale if the job you perform is immoral.
    ?
    Public/civil service is different. The better comparison would be joining the police force even though you don't believe in the drug war or that drugs should be illegal. Your job is to enforce all laws that the government passes. That's what it's like when your job is to represent the will of the people. Society couldn't operate if police officers decided what laws to enforce or soldiers decided what wars to fight. That's kind of the heart of the issue. You can believe in serving in either capacity outside of what your representative government asks you to do. That's no immoral.

    I wouldn't go to jail if I don't join the military. I go to jail if I don't pay taxes. Huge difference.
    You could move to a country that doesn't support the war. You seem to really expect a lot from others and virtually nothing from yourself. So the soldier that has put in say 14 years and needs 6 years until retirement should drop out of the armed forces...anything less is immoral even if it meant losing everything he's worked 14 years for?

    The guy that needs money for college...he better suck it up and just take student loans. How about the person that joins because they believe in things like the US armed forces and it's role to serve the will of the people. Hey buddy, change your goals in life.

    Are we going to say that the person who goes into a company that deals weapons to foreign dictators is absolved from the actions of that company?
    I just don't see private profit making ventures in the same light as something like civil service. The reasons for joining generally differ.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  4. #214
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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Public/civil service is different. The better comparison would be joining the police force even though you don't believe in the drug war or that drugs should be illegal. Your job is to enforce all laws that the government passes. That's what it's like when your job is to represent the will of the people. Society couldn't operate if police officers decided what laws to enforce or soldiers decided what wars to fight. That's kind of the heart of the issue. You can believe in serving in either capacity outside of what your representative government asks you to do. That's no immoral.
    The police officer is also immoral for enforcing unjust laws.

    You could move to a country that doesn't support the war. You seem to really expect a lot from others and virtually nothing from yourself. So the soldier that has put in say 14 years and needs 6 years until retirement should drop out of the armed forces...anything less is immoral even if it meant losing everything he's worked 14 years for?
    If it requires killing innocents then it's immoral. And why should I have to move from my property? I own my property, do I not?

    The guy that needs money for college...he better suck it up and just take student loans. How about the person that joins because they believe in things like the US armed forces and it's role to serve the will of the people. Hey buddy, change your goals in life.
    But the aggression of the US military has been blatant for at least 50 years.

    I just don't see private profit making ventures in the same light as something like civil service. The reasons for joining generally differ.
    And in the end you know what you are working for when you join.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #215
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    Re: Should We Always Support the Troops?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The police officer is also immoral for enforcing unjust laws.
    .
    The police officers job is to enforce laws. You really aren't operating a society based on laws when individuals determine what to enforce and what not to enforce.
    If it requires killing innocents then it's immoral.
    Yeah you really have to use some crazy logical twisting to view everyone on the other side of this conflict as innocents. Taliban? The Iraqi Republican Guard? The ruling Iraqi Regime? Insurgents that have targeted and killed (on purpose) more Iraqi civilians than American soldiers? I could agree pre-emptive war wrong but to claim everyone on the otherside of the conflict is innocent is just not true.
    And why should I have to move from my property? I own my property, do I not?
    Those property rights depend on having a police force to enforce those property roles and a US government that is soveriegn in order to protect those rights against other governments.


    What happens when police forces decide to arbitrarily not obey laws...or when soldiers on a large scale decide not to do what they have been ordered to do? It causes chaos and massive problems. It's a breakdown on order. It causes a loss of legitimacy. A society cannot operate without the idea that police officers obey and enforce the law and soldiers do what they are ordered to by the chain of command.

    But the aggression of the US military has been blatant for at least 50 years
    I would disagree with you. Do you believe the USSR wasn't a threat? Do you think some of the regimes we went against weren't a threat? We're definately not batting a 100% but you've reduced 50 years of diplomacy into a simple caricture. Just like your simple caricture of the role of law enforcement or soldiers supposedly should operate.

    And in the end you know what you are working for when you join.
    Sure using some boiled down reduced to black and white carictures of what joining law enforcement or the military means.

    Things are a bit more complicated. As mentioned your property rights depend on enforcement of US law. That enforcement can't be erratic....it can't be depedent on what laws individuals agree with or disagree with it has to be enough to sufficiently protect property rights and other rights all the time consistently.

    US law is also depedent on US sovereignty....which is dependent on the our ability to defend ourselves and our military. That military can't exist when the chain of command is not respected. It can't effectively operate when there's a question on if your soldiers decide on the justness of what you're representative form of government decides to do.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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