View Poll Results: A license to have children?

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  • Yes

    31 25.41%
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    85 69.67%
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Thread: A license to have children [W:81]

  1. #61
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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The problem is that, yes, sterilization can be reversed, but not always. Also, why would you want to sterilize everyone because of some people's irresponsible behaviors? Sounds a little bit extreme IMO.
    I know it does, but I've seen the extreme realities (not hypotheticals) that already exist everywhere out there. My line of work has exposed me to countless profoundly damaged people whose lives were utterly ruined by their monstrous parents.

    It's not that I don't respect people's rights or that I want a big intrusive government. It's that I've just seen too many children whose basic human rights were trampled on by parents who never deserved to be parents, and the damage was permanent. Seeing such permanent damage tends to deaden one's belief in unconditional reproductive rights.

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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Compassion and understanding does not cure FASD, protect them from abusive alcoholic parents, provide for their various needs or teach them the many skills they need to grow up healthy and happy.
    I didn't say that the solution should be compassion and understanding. I said that we address the problem from a place of compassion and understanding. I then suggested that we implement research backed education problems among other solutions so that parents won't become abusive and that children will have their needs met.

    What way is that? Promoting, encouraging, suggesting are weak strategies to try to inform people who don't want to be informed, and who just want to party.
    I said that we should implement strategies that are backed by research as effective. Inherent in that argument is that the strategies won't be weak.

    Dangerous for whom?
    I covered that when I said, "since the people who would be primarily effected by this would be non-whites and the poor (of all races/ethnicities), a policy regulating who can have kids would just increase racism and classism, increase white and wealth privilege and severely intensify racial and class tension. In other words, it would disrupt society significantly."

    Ever think about the dangers kids face when they're brought into the world by profoundly incompetent people?
    Yes, which is why I said, "That said, there is a problem with parents who can't raise children."

  3. #63
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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    So what would be the punishment for creating a baby without a license?


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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Good.

    Maybe someday you'll be better off when you realize that some people could only become a net bonus to society if they were soylent green.

    If you want your taxes to float along the dead wood, fine. I'll fight my damnedest to make it not happen to me.
    Nah, I like my worldview better. I'm not a psychopath so I don't have the luxury of disregarding human life for my own self interest.

  5. #65
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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    interesting discussion so far

    ill check back tomorrow to see if any cogent arguments have emerged

    regarding why americans should forfeit their rights to have children at their own discretion

  6. #66
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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethlehem Bill View Post
    a lot to work with here, please bear with me

    1) what "feel good theory" are you referring to?

    2) i did not call a permanent gov't underclass "progress". where did you see that? or are you creating a strawman here?

    3) i did not say that a gov't check works as a "substitute for daddy". where did you see that? or are you creating yet another strawman here?

    4) in what way is your strawman daddy substitute theory the "basis of much of our current welfare system". id like to see a source for when welfare legislation was introduced, and the authors of that legislation saying that the intent was to provide a "daddy substitute" via a government stipend. i suspect you wont be able to find such a source.

    5) youre right, we do not require that our country's poor be educated in order to receive assistance with dealing with poverty. if you want to make that argument, id be willing to listen

    6) finally, your own source refutes your argument. you claim on one hand that "daddy substitute" is the basis for much of welfare legislation. then you offer the article that indicates that married couples are much less poor than single parent families. yet, the article shows that over 90% of children were born to married couples from 1930 through 1975. so if children were being born to married couples over 90% of the time when welfare legislation was written, how is it possible or even logical to suggest that the intention at that time was to provide a "daddy substitute" - when almost every child in the country already had a father?

    please think this through. try to address the arguments that i make in my posts - not strawmen arguments that others have advanced elsewhere.
    I am simply showing you the "amazing coincidence" between the creation of the great society welfare programs (1965 on) and the out of wedlock childbirth rate. Is that simply correlation or causation? I agree that was not the stated intent, but certainly appears to be the unintended result, of these welfare programs. The idea that children being raised by one parent (often not working, or educated) and a gov't check are being "helped" defies logic. I would say, that if half the living parents are present, then they should get half of the gov't help - thus encouraging marriage/cohabitation, rather than the current system.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I didn't say that the solution should be compassion and understanding. I said that we address the problem from a place of compassion and understanding. I then suggested that we implement research backed education problems among other solutions so that parents won't become abusive and that children will have their needs met.

    I said that we should implement strategies that are backed by research as effective. Inherent in that argument is that the strategies won't be weak.
    Okay, but serious question: What if no such program exists that is shown by research to be effective? Your suggestion implicitly assumes that such a program exists out there that is effective. The social problems that underlie the abuse of children and the neglect of their needs is profound and pervasive. Basically I'm asking... what if your suggestion, reasonable and humane as it is, doesn't cut it?

    I covered that when I said, "since the people who would be primarily effected by this would be non-whites and the poor (of all races/ethnicities), a policy regulating who can have kids would just increase racism and classism, increase white and wealth privilege and severely intensify racial and class tension.
    I disagree with every part of that except the classism part. It is absolutely classist, what we're talking about. The other types of prejudice are usually mistaken for class differences, in my opinion.

  8. #68
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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Well,

    Do the parents own their children? Or are children independent beings at birth?

    This is a question that has been bugging people for centuries... I think the concept of original sin was an attempt to explain it.

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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I know it does, but I've seen the extreme realities (not hypotheticals) that already exist everywhere out there. My line of work has exposed me to countless profoundly damaged people whose lives were utterly ruined by their monstrous parents.

    It's not that I don't respect people's rights or that I want a big intrusive government. It's that I've just seen too many children whose basic human rights were trampled on by parents who never deserved to be parents, and the damage was permanent. Seeing such permanent damage tends to deaden one's belief in unconditional reproductive rights.
    I agree with that, of course, but I don't know if that is the right answer or not. Who is to say that these people will not abuse, neglect their children once they have their procedures reversed? There are NO guarantees, especially when it comes to something complicated like human beings. Just sounds a little too intrusive for my liking.

    Another thing, that is exactly what it would be, government-controlled reproduction.

  10. #70
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    re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Well,

    Do the parents own their children? Or are children independent beings at birth?

    This is a question that has been bugging people for centuries... I think the concept of original sin was an attempt to explain it.
    The idea of anyone owning another independent living thing is detestable on its face. At most, you are charged with being their guardian or care-taker. To say that ones own them means you may do whatever you like with them, and if that is true, there's no reason why slavery should be illegal.

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