View Poll Results: A license to have children?

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  • Yes

    31 25.41%
  • No

    85 69.67%
  • Undecided

    6 4.92%
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Thread: A license to have children [W:81]

  1. #581
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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Weird...never thought I'd see so many "Libertarians" supporting a policy that would intrude on the most fundamental "natural rights" a person has.
    Funny how solipsism comes through in their thoughts, isn't it? So long as it is their smaller rights, then it must be fought tooth and nail, but someone else's larger, more important rights, mankind ought to become monsters. You'll never see a group more dedicated to fight against anti-piracy efforts, gun control, or progressive taxation, but you can't bet that they will think you should be permitted to ever have children. Thankfully, there are at least some who have participated that had seen through the evil this would unleash.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-26-13 at 04:52 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Funny how solipsism comes through in their thoughts, isn't it? So long as it is their smaller rights, then it must be fought tooth and nail, but someone else's larger, more important rights, mankind ought to become monsters. You'll never see a group more dedicated to fight against anti-piracy efforts, gun control, or progressive taxation, but you can't bet that they will think you should be permitted to ever have children.
    This is dishonest, as these views have already been clarified, for example by the following posts:


    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I know it does, but I've seen the extreme realities (not hypotheticals) that already exist everywhere out there. My line of work has exposed me to countless profoundly damaged people whose lives were utterly ruined by their monstrous parents.

    It's not that I don't respect people's rights or that I want a big intrusive government. It's that I've just seen too many children whose basic human rights were trampled on by parents who never deserved to be parents, and the damage was permanent. Seeing such permanent damage tends to deaden one's belief in unconditional reproductive rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Reproductive rights are unique in that reproduction creates another human that will also have its own rights.

    Therefore reproductive rights cannot be sacrosanct, as it inevitable results in a helpless life who is entitled to its needs being met by its mother and father. Reproductive rights are not just about the rights of post-pubescent humans to procreate. They are about balancing the parents' rights with the incoming rights of the newborn. When parents can't demonstrably meet the newborn's needs, their right to create the newborn should be nullified.
    So it's not that we are picking and choosing which rights we like while trying to trample on ones we don't. It's that we're acknowledging that new lives also end up having rights, and the rights of some of those new lives are being routinely neglected by their parents in the direct sense, as well as indirectly by our society's unconditional and sacrosanct reproductive rights at the expense of the health and wellbeing of new lives.

  3. #583
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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    This is dishonest, as these views have already been clarified, for example by the following posts:
    Come on. Don't insult my intelligence. You literally advocated for a policy that would have millions of people sterilized, and this included my brother (which you were about as close to explicit as you can get), and now you want to try to convince me that you stand on the side of liberty. It is one thing to advocate for an evil policy, but to then say it isn't one of the biggest breaches of human liberty possible, is just sad. You even had the balls to say I was taking it too seriously!

    Anyone who read your message just now should remember what a dishonest, insulting person you were just a couple of days ago.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-26-13 at 05:04 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Come on. Don't insult my intelligence. You literally advocated for a policy that would have millions of people sterilized, and this included my brother (which you were about as close to explicit as you can get), and now you want to try to convince me that you stand on the side of liberty. It is one thing to advocate for an evil policy, but to then say it isn't one of the biggest breaches of human liberty possible, is just sad. You even had the balls to say I was taking it too seriously!
    I said you were taking it too personally, not too seriously. But since this topic is difficult for you to think about outside the context of your own family... I'll pose a serious question: Whose rights should prevail: your brother's right to reproduce despite his inability to raise a child, or the would-be child's rights to have its needs met?

    I'm not simply arguing some people should get snipped because I arbitrarily enjoy controlling people. I'm suggesting that a parent's right to reproduce should be weighed against its baby's right to have its needs met. If it's demonstrable beyond any doubt that a person can't meet its own child's needs, it logically follows that the person should not become a parent.

    Anyone who read your message just now should remember what a dishonest, insulting person you were just a couple of days ago.
    You and others continue to distract from the fact that reproduction results in a new life that also has rights. It is unjust to all parties involved to guard reproductive rights as sacrosanct even when reproduction results in bad things for everyone: a child whose needs are neglected, the parent who feels even worse off after it's removed from the home and placed into state custody, and everyone else in society who pays for the costs associated with this intervention. We have methods for intervention which are too little too late in many cases. It's time to get a little more serious about prevention.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 02-26-13 at 05:16 PM.

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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    What if a teenager turns 18 while her parents/guardian are on welfare...does he/she have to get sterilized?

    And if so - what if a daughter moves out and then moves back in with her parents who is on welfare? Does she have to be sterilized before she sets foot in the door? Can she stay the weekend? A week? A month?

    How long can the offspring visit their welfare parent before the state demands they become sterilized?

    And if there is a time limit - what is to stop the child from living with the parents until the limit is reached, move out and then move back again to start the time limit all over again? This could conceivably go on for years.
    You could have a deal between two families. The offspring live with their parents until the time limit is up - then the families switch children during the waiting period. And then they switch back and start the time limit all over again.

    And how are you going to have the government check the millions of families to make sure they are complying with the time limits?
    it will cost tens of millions of dollars to watch over ALL these families.
    Last edited by DA60; 02-26-13 at 05:44 PM.

  6. #586
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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    "America" wont be sterilizing anybody in mass numbers by force anytime soon, no need to. Fix whats broken you dont punish the people and strip their rights and freedoms thats dumb and broken logic.

    Also was the question "what is the punishment for have a child without a license" ever answered?
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    "America" wont be sterilizing anybody in mass numbers by force anytime soon, no need to. Fix whats broken you dont punish the people and strip their rights and freedoms thats dumb and broken logic.

    Also was the question "what is the punishment for have a child without a license" ever answered?
    No, I don't believe so. There could be no practical or sensible punishment for getting pregnant without a license. In that sense, a license for having children would only work if we were able to somehow reversibly sterilize all new children at birth and reverse the procedure once they obtained the license. This too is at least impractical. That was why I went straight for what makes the most sense, which is to offer people who definitely should not be having children in their current state a reward for taking the steps that guarantee pregnancy prevention.

  8. #588
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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No, I don't believe so. There could be no practical or sensible punishment for getting pregnant without a license. In that sense, a license for having children would only work if we were able to somehow reversibly sterilize all new children at birth and reverse the procedure once they obtained the license. This too is at least impractical. That was why I went straight for what makes the most sense, which is to offer people who definitely should not be having children in their current state a reward for taking the steps that guarantee pregnancy prevention.
    What reward and what steps would they be taking?
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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    What reward and what steps would they be taking?
    See post #8.

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    Re: A license to have children [W:81]

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I said you were taking it too personally, not too seriously. But since this topic is difficult for you to think about outside the context of your own family... I'll pose a serious question: Whose rights should prevail: your brother's right to reproduce despite his inability to raise a child, or the would-be child's rights to have its needs met?

    I'm not simply arguing some people should get snipped because I arbitrarily enjoy controlling people. I'm suggesting that a parent's right to reproduce should be weighed against its baby's right to have its needs met. If it's demonstrable beyond any doubt that a person can't meet its own child's needs, it logically follows that the person should not become a parent.



    You and others continue to distract from the fact that reproduction results in a new life that also has rights. It is unjust to all parties involved to guard reproductive rights as sacrosanct even when reproduction results in bad things for everyone: a child whose needs are neglected, the parent who feels even worse off after it's removed from the home and placed into state custody, and everyone else in society who pays for the costs associated with this intervention. We have methods for intervention which are too little too late in many cases. It's time to get a little more serious about prevention.
    You're goddamm right I am going to be talking about my family, my friends, my colleagues, the people I work for and try to help. You're so sick and twisted from reality that you don't want an actual human face to be put on public policy. This affects real people, and it doesn't affect them in small ways, it affects them as human beings. You still insist on insulting those people and yet announce your innocence in the process. Don't you dare tell me to be detached from such arguments. As the disabled, we've earned the right to protest this evil policy inflicted upon us for generations. The other group victims of sterilization practices of the 20th century have earned the right to speak out. It's such a black mark upon society that we are trying to figure out how to properly apologize for it, and you insist on going forward with bringing it back.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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