View Poll Results: Should the government be allowed to forbid manatee riding?

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  • No, riding a manatee is guaranteed by the constitution

    4 9.52%
  • yes, the government can forbid manatee riding

    15 35.71%
  • the tea party has lost it's mind to campaign for manatee riding

    15 35.71%
  • I have a different opinion, see my remarks

    8 19.05%
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Thread: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Riding a manatee??? My god the horror of it all. What's next, dwarf tossing?

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    The OP poll is based entirely on non-existence fact and is 100% deliberate diversion from real issues.

    Again, the issues were not raised by the Tea Party nor are the Tea Party one of the two sides. The only reason the Tea Party involved is because part of the issue is local government rights versus state rights versus federal rights and all versus homeowners rights. Some Tea Party members support local government and property owners' rights.

    Here are the real issues:

    1. The #1 manatee gathering point is a beautiful ancient collection of springs called "Three Sisters." It was a beautiful, semi-secret place with a really cool cyprus overgrown creek with large boulder bottom that people including children could swim or wade up thru into a beautiful pure spring water (warm water) natural setting back in the cyprus.

    It was an unspoiled as it had always been natural setting. The State got hold of it - and immediately bulldozed down most the trees to make a massive parking lot, built walkways surrounding it, and unveiled a massive project to turn it into a park (typical $15 admission fee) along with gift shop, cafe, etc - essentially destroying the environment - and planning to block off anyone actually going into the water - blocking off 3 Sisters except from Manatees.

    After bulldozing most the plants and a gzillion pounds of limestone gravel for the parking lot, and the raised walkway put in, the Federal government jumped in stopping it. The local government and homeowners opposing all of this.

    Oh, BTW, the state got the land as an gift paid for by local individuals contributing to buy the land - then giving it to the state with the deed restriction that it never be developed and left natural and open to everyone. Within 2 months, instead, the state had bulldozed 90% of it down and was well along on construction.

    Enter the feds. This area is typical Florida, with canals with residences all over the place. The Feds came in and put up bouys everywhere, blocking off people from their own canals (and thus could not use their boats) and turned it all into an idle zone - for miles.

    Before the state and feds came along, the pro-manatee people declared this area could not possibly support more than 300 manatees due to periodic food shortages that radical temporary environmental chance happens time to time - meaning more than that would starve. BUT this community is more pro-manatee than probably any place on earth. The environmentals also raged that unless boat speeds reduced, manatee would die.

    They were wrong because of the locals and understanding manatees. The manatees did not starve, because in food shortage locals fed them (illegally ironically). And contrary to the "wisdom" of environmentalists, manatees are curious, not afraid and like people and boats. They swim towards boats. Thus, the slower the boat goes, the more likely the manatees will get hit.

    When it was ONLY local government and ONLY local people and ONLY local businesses (as Manatee are the tourist draw too), not only was the mortality rate of manatees in this area less than 1 per year (where 800 a year could die by water turning cold before they got here), but the population was soaring past 300, past 500, past 1000, past 1500.

    Their numbers grew so large because of locals who love manatees but also understand them and their needs, the federal people PANICKED because the federal Department of Interior ruled that Manatees no longer need be on the "endangered" list, but rather downgraded to "protected species". If done, a hundred federal employees would lose their jobs - and why the feds rushed in declaring a manatee crisis - and establishing rules that actually kill manatees!

    Of course, people who live on waterway canals being blocked off from their own canals is infuriation at best - and a property rights issue as we OWN the land under the water, it is NOT natural waterways, and in a sense it is the government just seizing the most value aspect of your land - and even cutting off access to and from your land.

    THUS, in response to all of this, the government - as it so often does - declares that citizens are evil people! and only they can protect the manatees from us evil people - using a video to some asshole who was a tourist from somewhere to prove how evil us locals are - when it is because of us locals the Manatee population has soared AND reached into our pockets to buy nature to keep it natural - and then the government brought in bulldozers in stead.

    The same with trying to inject the TEA PARTY into this to try to declare those opposing state and government takeover of land, destroying the natural environment, seizing land summarily, and harming the manatees in the process are just a bunch of rightwing kooks.

    The issues have NOTHING - as in ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - with the Tea Party, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal. Rather, it is the goverment declaring such falsely to divert from the real issues.

    And as we see, basically all the liberals and Democrats go right along in toe-step with it now that it was totally falsely declared a Tea Party action.

    I've been at every meeting, am directly involved personally and professionally, and I am an officer directly in this. NEVER, not on ANY occasion, has the Tea Party been a factor, influence or player in any of this. Nor is there any issue about riding manatees. That has been illegal for decades. That video is a 100% diversion from what are the issues. The federals and state government people have nothing but bad to show for their actions - so they rage this diversion and solicite unknowledgable greenies to go protest on behalf of the manatees and for the agencies that are actually getting them killed.

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    As a side comment, if that manatee didn't like that guy or gal on it, it could toss him or her or dive or otherwise not be riden. Riding a manatee against it's will would be like trying to ride an elephant seal in the water against its wishes. Manatees are very social and - like dolphins - some really WANT to interact with people.

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    manatees are not humans play things, the cold hard fact is that it is illegal to ride/bother/disturb them. The law has been in place for decades, if you are dumb enough...
    Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it should be illegal. Dumb laws can in fact be in place for decades.


    Just the fact that there is actually a law about this is absurdity.

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Feel free to travel down to your local horse track and shout your outrage to the heavens.
    If I thought it would stop the barbaric "sport" of horse racing, I'd damn sure do that. So much animal abuse in the raising, training, and racing of these animals, from pumping them full of steroids and painkillers, to literally riding them to death.

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Fascinating. I mean, the media's spin. One particular tea party group makes some statements in the middle of a complicated local dispute. I can't even "take it out of context" - I have no idea what the "context" is. And, living at the most distant corner of the 48 contiguous, I have zero motivation to investigate.

    Headlines? "Tea Party defends the right to ride manatee". And I have seen it THREE times today, without looking for it, just in the stream of (national) news!

    But of course, they are silly people (when they are not vicious racist bigots), those "Tea Party" types. Balancing budgets, curbing corporate welfare, protecting individual freedoms, riding manatees - ha, ha, ha - what a bunch of clowns!

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    The tea party has come to the defense of a woman has gotten into trouble with the law after she was caught on photograph riding on top of a manatee. You can read the entire story here Tea Party defends right to ride a manatee - Tampa Bay Independent | Examiner.com
    Indeed - because humans are a peaceful species and we never harm other living creatures - especially the defenseless ones that pose no threat to us.

    Hah - no - not buying it. . . it's total and utter bull****.

    No one has a reason to be harassing creatures of the wild - one day it's an innocent idiot and the next it's a dumb**** with a mean streak.
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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    I do not believe a word of this

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The OP poll is based entirely on non-existence fact and is 100% deliberate diversion from real issues.
    Again, the issues were not raised by the Tea Party nor are the Tea Party one of the two sides. The only reason the Tea Party involved is because part of the issue is local government rights versus state rights versus federal rights and all versus homeowners rights. Some Tea Party members support local government and property owners' rights.
    Here are the real issues:
    1. The #1 manatee gathering point is a beautiful ancient collection of springs called "Three Sisters." It was a beautiful, semi-secret place with a really cool cyprus overgrown creek with large boulder bottom that people including children could swim or wade up thru into a beautiful pure spring water (warm water) natural setting back in the cyprus.
    It was an unspoiled as it had always been natural setting. The State got hold of it - and immediately bulldozed down most the trees to make a massive parking lot, built walkways surrounding it, and unveiled a massive project to turn it into a park (typical $15 admission fee) along with gift shop, cafe, etc - essentially destroying the environment - and planning to block off anyone actually going into the water - blocking off 3 Sisters except from Manatees.
    After bulldozing most the plants and a gzillion pounds of limestone gravel for the parking lot, and the raised walkway put in, the Federal government jumped in stopping it. The local government and homeowners opposing all of this.
    Oh, BTW, the state got the land as an gift paid for by local individuals contributing to buy the land - then giving it to the state with the deed restriction that it never be developed and left natural and open to everyone. Within 2 months, instead, the state had bulldozed 90% of it down and was well along on construction.
    I do not know why the state did that. It sounds like a bad idea, but you only present one side of the story

    Enter the feds. This area is typical Florida, with canals with residences all over the place. The Feds came in and put up bouys everywhere, blocking off people from their own canals (and thus could not use their boats) and turned it all into an idle zone - for miles.
    This does not appear to be true. You offer no corroboration, but what I've read says that homeowners along the protected area have always been allowed to go to and from the homes as long as they observed the speed limits
    Notice Designating Kings Bay (Citrus County, FL) Manatee Refuge | North Florida ESO Jacksonville

    Before the state and feds came along, the pro-manatee people declared this area could not possibly support more than 300 manatees due to periodic food shortages that radical temporary environmental chance happens time to time - meaning more than that would starve. BUT this community is more pro-manatee than probably any place on earth. The environmentals also raged that unless boat speeds reduced, manatee would die.

    They were wrong because of the locals and understanding manatees. The manatees did not starve, because in food shortage locals fed them (illegally ironically). And contrary to the "wisdom" of environmentalists, manatees are curious, not afraid and like people and boats. They swim towards boats. Thus, the slower the boat goes, the more likely the manatees will get hit.
    Actually, most manatees do not want to interact with people. Only a few do. When manatees are harrassed, they move to other areas, even if those other areas are not as safe as the area where humans are present. This results in increased manatee mortality

    When it was ONLY local government and ONLY local people and ONLY local businesses (as Manatee are the tourist draw too), not only was the mortality rate of manatees in this area less than 1 per year (where 800 a year could die by water turning cold before they got here), but the population was soaring past 300, past 500, past 1000, past 1500.
    Their numbers grew so large because of locals who love manatees but also understand them and their needs, the federal people PANICKED because the federal Department of Interior ruled that Manatees no longer need be on the "endangered" list, but rather downgraded to "protected species". If done, a hundred federal employees would lose their jobs - and why the feds rushed in declaring a manatee crisis - and establishing rules that actually kill manatees!
    According to the chart in the above link, manatee population has been rising steadily both before and after the state and the feds took over mgmt of the area.

    And the Fed never declared a "manatee crisis" as far as I can tell. Sounds like hyperbole

    Of course, people who live on waterway canals being blocked off from their own canals is infuriation at best - and a property rights issue as we OWN the land under the water, it is NOT natural waterways, and in a sense it is the government just seizing the most value aspect of your land - and even cutting off access to and from your land.
    I've seen no evidence that people who live on the waterway were blocked from the canals.

    THUS, in response to all of this, the government - as it so often does - declares that citizens are evil people! and only they can protect the manatees from us evil people - using a video to some asshole who was a tourist from somewhere to prove how evil us locals are - when it is because of us locals the Manatee population has soared AND reached into our pockets to buy nature to keep it natural - and then the government brought in bulldozers in stead.
    No one declared that citizens are evil people. That is just more hyperbole

    The same with trying to inject the TEA PARTY into this to try to declare those opposing state and government takeover of land, destroying the natural environment, seizing land summarily, and harming the manatees in the process are just a bunch of rightwing kooks.
    The issues have NOTHING - as in ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - with the Tea Party, Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal. Rather, it is the goverment declaring such falsely to divert from the real issues.
    And as we see, basically all the liberals and Democrats go right along in toe-step with it now that it was totally falsely declared a Tea Party action.


    I've been at every meeting, am directly involved personally and professionally, and I am an officer directly in this. NEVER, not on ANY occasion, has the Tea Party been a factor, influence or player in any of this. Nor is there any issue about riding manatees. That has been illegal for decades. That video is a 100% diversion from what are the issues. The federals and state government people have nothing but bad to show for their actions - so they rage this diversion and solicite unknowledgable greenies to go protest on behalf of the manatees and for the agencies that are actually getting them killed.
    The facts show that the manatee population is thriving under Fed mgmt.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    As a side comment, if that manatee didn't like that guy or gal on it, it could toss him or her or dive or otherwise not be riden. Riding a manatee against it's will would be like trying to ride an elephant seal in the water against its wishes. Manatees are very social and - like dolphins - some really WANT to interact with people.
    It's comments like that which make me doubt everything you say about this, particularly your claim to be directly involved in this. Most manatees do not want to interact with people, and harrassing them poses a threat to the entire manatee population

    Notice Designating Kings Bay (Citrus County, FL) Manatee Refuge | North Florida ESO Jacksonville

    Hartman (1979, pp. 128–131) was the first to observe and describe how manatees respond to the presence of people in the water, observing that most manatees tended to avoid people, some ignored people, a few approached people and then left, and some approached and initiated interactions with people. These observations were made in Kings Bay’s warm water springs and the author correlated a reduction in the number of manatees using the Main Spring with an increasing number of people (Hartman 1979, p. 131). Concern has been expressed about manatees displaced from warm water springs for prolonged periods of time; prolonged exposure to cold can be fatal to manatees, especially for smaller animals (O’Shea 1995, p. 304). Hartman (1979, p. 126) believed that manatees in Kings Bay are harassed by people in the water and by boats.

    Researchers have observed and documented manatee responses to people and boats (Sorice et al. 2003, p. 324). Researchers noted increases in swimming, milling, and cavorting behaviors and decreases in resting, feeding, and nursing behaviors in the presence of increasing numbers of people and boats (Abernathy 1995, pp. 23–26; Wooding 1997, p. 1; King and Heinen 2004, pp. 230–231). They also observed that increases in numbers of boats and people prompted manatees to use other areas (Kochman et al. 1985, pp. 922–924; Buckingham et al. 1999, p. 514).
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should one be able to ride a manatee without interference from the government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Indeed - because humans are a peaceful species and we never harm other living creatures - especially the defenseless ones that pose no threat to us.

    Hah - no - not buying it. . . it's total and utter bull****.

    No one has a reason to be harassing creatures of the wild - one day it's an innocent idiot and the next it's a dumb**** with a mean streak.
    I think you are right, the woman on the picture does not look like she is distressing the animal too badly but the young boy in the other video does look like he is doing. You cannot however make distinctions like that in a law forbidding the riding of manatees, it is just not allowed and whether you did or did not distress the animal is not an issue or cannot be measured objectively anyway.
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