Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?[W: 356]

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

so if you have an opinion 2 + 2 = 5 theres no way to disprove that because you called it an opinion?

no trolling here im trying to get people to step up and defend and support their false claim with facts instead of just "because i said so" thats how debate works

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No, debate in a political forum is not trying to bait anyone to defend their opinion because it is just that, an opinion. I could sit here all night long and take the opposite side of anything you post, but it wouldn't further any serious discussion we might actually have...

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

AlabamaPaul said:

No, debate in a political forum is not trying to bait anyone to defend their opinion because it is just that, an opinion. I could sit here all night long and take the opposite side of anything you post, but it wouldn't further any serious discussion we might actually have...

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well guess you should try telling that to the people pushing their opinion as FACT then and arguing against facts then huh

the solution is simply, if you want to talk OPINION talk about something that is OPINIONS, but when discussing facts opinion lose and get exposed.

some people are trying to do this and they are failing.

I do agree with you though you could take the opposite side of anybody who was arguing against facts and no real discussion real happen. WHy because theres not one to take place since one side is being dishonest or are simply in denial.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

well guess you should try telling that to the people pushing their opinion as FACT then and arguing against facts then huh

the solution is simply, if you want to talk OPINION talk about something that is OPINIONS, but when discussing facts opinion lose and get exposed.

some people are trying to do this and they are failing.

I do agree with you though you could take the opposite side of anybody who was arguing against facts and no real discussion real happen. WHy because theres not one to take place since one side is being dishonest or are simply in denial.

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Posters tend to try to amplify their beliefs and seek out others that might agree. I'm fairly new here, but I believe discussion is a better way to get YOUR beliefs across to them...

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

AlabamaPaul said:

Posters tend to try to amplify their beliefs and seek out others that might agree. I'm fairly new here, but I believe discussion is a better way to get YOUR beliefs across to them...

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well i agree 100% with you in cases where my beliefs are up for debate or discussion. Thats not the case though here, you do see that right? do you disagree?

if the discussion was which candiate is better etc then yes that would be best but not here, theres no beliefs at play.

In this case my beliefs are a non factor :shrug:

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

well i agree 100% with you in cases where my beliefs are up for debate or discussion. Thats not the case though here, you do see that right? do you disagree?

if the discussion was which candiate is better etc then yes that would be best but not here, theres no beliefs at play.

In this case my beliefs are a non factor :shrug:

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Your beliefs are always a factor...

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Moderator's Warning:

OK folks, time to calm this down alot. No more accusations of trolling, no more name calling, no more trolling, baiting, flaming, off topic comments of any sort.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

AlabamaPaul said:

Your beliefs are always a factor...

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not true when dealing with facts

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

not true when dealing with facts

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Facts have a funny way of being distorted. State a fact as it relates to this thread...

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Hard Truth said:

Depending on region Blacks/african Americans are 10-22% of the population. so at 37% homeless they are actually over-represented among the homeless and whites are under-represented.

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But there are plenty of racists in any race. No race is innocent.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

AlabamaPaul said:

Facts have a funny way of being distorted. State a fact as it relates to this thread...

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I dont think so, facts are facts

PEOPLE try to distort them, but distorting a fact doesn't make the fact any less true, its a distortion, which is not a fact

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

I dont think so, facts are facts

PEOPLE try to distort them, but distorting a fact doesn't make the fact any less true, its a distortion, which is not a fact

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You're avoiding the challenge. State one fact of you have as it relates to this thread...

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

of course its already been done in this thread :shrug:
people have experienced it and been through it, including myself, im not sure why you would even ask for something so simply to prove

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I said empiracly, with data. If its so simple then do it again. Which post numbers proved this phenomina exists? How did they prove it? If it is widespread and exists then it stands to reason there data to support its existance. Your and others anccidotal experiance is NOT documented fact, its subjective experiance. You ask people to PROVE it DOESNT exist. I am turning your question around and saying prove it does. Factually. Utilizing data. If there is trend then it can be teased out from the data. Not only should be able to determine a trend we should be able to determine if it is increasing or decreasing. Given a large enough data set even a subtle trend can be teased out along with its direction. The trend will either be there or it wont be. I ask out of geniuine curiosity. I think from my intitial reviews of census data sets that "white" priveledge may not exist in a statistacally significant way, that if there is a trend then it is so slight as to be lost in the noise of the data sets. If there is "white" privaledge it is isolated incidents and or the contruance of incidents to be which may not be. At least thats my interpretation.

Working Definition
white privilege, a social relation

1. a. A right, advantage, or immunity granted to or enjoyed by white persons beyond the common advantage of all others; an exemption in many particular cases from certain burdens or liabilities.
b. A special advantage or benefit of white persons; with reference to divine dispensations, natural advantages, gifts of fortune, genetic endowments, social relations, etc.
2. A privileged position; the possession of an advantage white persons enjoy over non–white persons.
3. a. The special right or immunity attaching to white persons as a social relation; prerogative.
b. display of white privilege, a social expression of a white person or persons demanding to be treated as a member or members of the socially privileged class.
4. a. To invest white persons with a privilege or privileges; to grant to white persons a particular right or immunity; to benefit or favor specially white persons; to invest white persons with special honorable distinctions.
b. To avail oneself of a privilege owing to one as a white person.
5. To authorize or license of white person or persons what is forbidden or wrong for non–whites; to justify, excuse.
6. To give to white persons special freedom or immunity from some liability or burden to which non–white persons are subject; to exempt.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

AlabamaPaul said:

You're avoiding the challenge. State one fact of you have as it relates to this thread...

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false lol

no im not avoiding any challenge i thought you were just stating an example not actually asking since this whole discussion that you chimed in on was based on my factually statement i already made. so calm down lol
Why would i think you want me to RESTATE the fact that as already been stated by me and others.

the factual statement made by me and others is:

white privilege does exist.
whats up for opinion is how much, to what extent, when, where and why.

thats the factual statement that many made here

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

PirateMk1 said:

I said empiracly, with data. If its so simple then do it again. Which post numbers proved this phenomina exists? How did they prove it? If it is widespread and exists then it stands to reason there data to support its existance. Your and others anccidotal experiance is NOT documented fact, its subjective experiance. You ask people to PROVE it DOESNT exist. I am turning your question around and saying prove it does. Factually. Utilizing data. If there is trend then it can be teased out from the data. Not only should be able to determine a trend we should be able to determine if it is increasing or decreasing. Given a large enough data set even a subtle trend can be teased out along with its direction. The trend will either be there or it wont be. I ask out of geniuine curiosity. I think from my intitial reviews of census data sets that "white" priveledge may not exist in a statistacally significant way, that if there is a trend then it is so slight as to be lost in the noise of the data sets. If there is "white" privaledge it is isolated incidents and or the contruance of incidents to be which may not be. At least thats my interpretation.

Working Definition
white privilege, a social relation

1. a. A right, advantage, or immunity granted to or enjoyed by white persons beyond the common advantage of all others; an exemption in many particular cases from certain burdens or liabilities.
b. A special advantage or benefit of white persons; with reference to divine dispensations, natural advantages, gifts of fortune, genetic endowments, social relations, etc.
2. A privileged position; the possession of an advantage white persons enjoy over non–white persons.
3. a. The special right or immunity attaching to white persons as a social relation; prerogative.
b. display of white privilege, a social expression of a white person or persons demanding to be treated as a member or members of the socially privileged class.
4. a. To invest white persons with a privilege or privileges; to grant to white persons a particular right or immunity; to benefit or favor specially white persons; to invest white persons with special honorable distinctions.
b. To avail oneself of a privilege owing to one as a white person.
5. To authorize or license of white person or persons what is forbidden or wrong for non–whites; to justify, excuse.
6. To give to white persons special freedom or immunity from some liability or burden to which non–white persons are subject; to exempt.

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yes i know what you said look up the word empirical and youll see it has already been down :shrug:

1: originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>

it has been empirical proven :shrug:

what dont you get

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

ThePlayDrive said:

It's willful ignorance, period. Anybody who denies the existence of white privilege doesn't want to believe it exists so they close their eyes to it.

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What about black privilege?

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

yes i know what you said look up the word empirical and youll see it has already been down :shrug:

1: originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>

it has been empirical proven :shrug:

what dont you get

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Excuse me, I mean specifically statistical evidence, utilizing the scientific method, studies of such data when I describe emiprical evidence. Do note, that valid emiprical evidence in a scientific study is FULLY documented for peer review. Example, studies utilizing census data would provide when and where and how the data was collected, the sample size, error rate, who collected it, what methodology is used to analyise the data and why, ect. Which posts have this data or evidence I may review?

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

PirateMk1 said:

Excuse me, I mean specifically statistical evidence, utilizing the scientific method, studies of such data when I describe emiprical evidence. Do note, that valid emiprical evidence in a scientific study is FULLY documented for peer review. Example, studies utilizing census data would provide when and where and how the data was collected, the sample size, error rate, who collected it, what methodology is used to analyise the data and why, ect. Which posts have this data or evidence I may review?

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so you mean a made definition of empirical evidence? got it

Empirical | Define Empirical at Dictionary.com
em·pir·i·cal
[em-pir-i-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1. derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.
3. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

no post here has scientific data has to my knowledge this hasnt been studied in a lab and written about with statistics and fully documented

so no i dont have that nor is needed since if it happens at all it "exist" and it happening has been proven :shrug:

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

so you mean a made definition of empirical evidence? got it

Empirical | Define Empirical at Dictionary.com
em·pir·i·cal
[em-pir-i-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1. derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.
3. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

no post here has scientific data has to my knowledge this hasnt been studied in a lab and written about with statistics and fully documented

so no i dont have that nor is needed since if it happens at all it "exist" and it happening has been proven :shrug:

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Then it exists as a undetermined phenomena? Is it then a real problem or just a fringe phenomena?

Are there other causes that mimic white privilege? And if so to what extent do those other cause occur? Are you claiming that something exists just because certain people perceive that it does? Or are we left with just faith that white privilege exists because people say it does?

You seem to be offering a circular argument that asserts that something exists because some people say so. If you want people to believe that something exists then by all means prove it instead of just saying that it exists because people say it exists.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

so you mean a made definition of empirical evidence? got it

Empirical | Define Empirical at Dictionary.com
em·pir·i·cal
[em-pir-i-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1. derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.
3. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

no post here has scientific data has to my knowledge this hasnt been studied in a lab and written about with statistics and fully documented

so no i dont have that nor is needed since if it happens at all it "exist" and it happening has been proven :shrug:

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Empirical data is used in the scientific method. Its also documented.

No lab required. Just need good data to analyis.

How was it proven then? Basically you are saying you and others experianced this phenomina, and proof enough. I dont buy that. You wouldnt allow me to get away with that. All that I have found in the posts so far is what Playdrive gave and to be blunt are not exactly very helpful to discern one way or another without much further digging which I currently am.

If it is a valid common phenomina then it can be proven via statistaical study. So far in my research everything I have found there has been very little study of the pehenomina and more importantly NO indepth studies that I can find. Most of what I am looking at are overly broad data sets with no real filthering looking closer at the data. For instance comparing wages of lawyers and doctors. There various SUB species of doctors and lawyers all of which are paid differently. I have yet to see a study comparing the saleries of black and white nerologists, and cardiologists, and corperate and real estate lawyers for instance. Were there is viable comparison, like nurses and police officers, were there is not much room for specialties I find that compared wages are within or just outside the noise or error band. In the case of nurses black nurses tend to make more at latter stages of their carreer.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

FreedomFromAll said:

1.)Then it exists as a undetermined phenomena? Is it then a real problem or just a fringe phenomena?

2.)Are there other causes that mimic white privilege?
2a.) And if so to what extent do those other cause occur?
3.)Are you claiming that something exists just because certain people perceive that it does?
4.)Or are we left with just faith that white privilege exists because people say it does?

5.)You seem to be offering a circular argument that asserts that something exists because some people say so. If you want people to believe that something exists then by all means prove it instead of just saying that it exists because people say it exists.

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1.) real problem?

thats subjective as i said earlier IMO i dont htink it needs special attention more so than what we already do, freedom, rights, discrimination laws, civil rights etc

other may feel its no problem other may want more done for it :shrug:

2.) again as i said earlier bigotry, special treatment, discrimination, favoritism exists based on gender, sexuality, races, religion age, disabilities, looks etc
2a.) who knows what the exact extent is, id imagine they exist on a majority vs minority scale just like most things
3.) of course not for this subject BUT certain subjective subjects can do this
4.) no didnt say this either, people know it does because of the factual support
5.) nope again you have it wrong, the facts support it does, if you think that no instances of it exist you are just ignore reality and facts. Also i dont "want" people to believe it because i dont care if they do. Their belief doesnt impact facts.

are there any factual stories, reports that people were hired, promoted, treated special etc etc etc simply because they were white? yes therefore it exists

again like i already said like 20 times, if you want to debate how much, to what extent and when, where and why it does that's fine but denying it is denying facts :shrug:

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

PirateMk1 said:

Empirical data is used in the scientific method. Its also documented.

No lab required. Just need good data to analyis.

How was it proven then? Basically you are saying you and others experianced this phenomina, and proof enough. I dont buy that. You wouldnt allow me to get away with that. All that I have found in the posts so far is what Playdrive gave and to be blunt are not exactly very helpful to discern one way or another without much further digging which I currently am.

If it is a valid common phenomina then it can be proven via statistaical study. So far in my research everything I have found there has been very little study of the pehenomina and more importantly NO indepth studies that I can find. Most of what I am looking at are overly broad data sets with no real filthering looking closer at the data. For instance comparing wages of lawyers and doctors. There various SUB species of doctors and lawyers all of which are paid differently. I have yet to see a study comparing the saleries of black and white nerologists, and cardiologists, and corperate and real estate lawyers for instance. Were there is viable comparison, like nurses and police officers, were there is not much room for specialties I find that compared wages are within or just outside the noise or error band. In the case of nurses black nurses tend to make more at latter stages of their carreer.

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guess you should have asked for scientific then and not empirical

see post 370 youll get a hint on how to find factual evidence

it may not be what you specifically are looking for but it will show you how to find factual evidence none the less :shrug:

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

PirateMk1 said:

Empirical data is used in the scientific method. Its also documented.

No lab required. Just need good data to analyis.

How was it proven then? Basically you are saying you and others experianced this phenomina, and proof enough. I dont buy that. You wouldnt allow me to get away with that. All that I have found in the posts so far is what Playdrive gave and to be blunt are not exactly very helpful to discern one way or another without much further digging which I currently am.

If it is a valid common phenomina then it can be proven via statistaical study. So far in my research everything I have found there has been very little study of the pehenomina and more importantly NO indepth studies that I can find. Most of what I am looking at are overly broad data sets with no real filthering looking closer at the data. For instance comparing wages of lawyers and doctors. There various SUB species of doctors and lawyers all of which are paid differently. I have yet to see a study comparing the saleries of black and white nerologists, and cardiologists, and corperate and real estate lawyers for instance. Were there is viable comparison, like nurses and police officers, were there is not much room for specialties I find that compared wages are within or just outside the noise or error band. In the case of nurses black nurses tend to make more at latter stages of their carreer.

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Dude, white privilege is nothing more than "flip side" of racism and discrimination against non-whites (and the consequences of both). If you believe that racism and discrimination against non-whites exist, then you believe that white privilege exists. If you don't believe that white privilege exists, then you also don't believe that racism and discrimination exist.

So, do you believe that racism and discrimination against non-whites exist? It's a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

And for specific examples of "white privilege": White privilege is not having to deal with the legacy of extreme systemic discrimination. White privilege is not having to worry that your personal failures will be seen by others as proof of significantly harmful stereotypes and a representation of your entire "race." White privilege is being able to see "yourself" dominate the media and be represented in a significantly diverse amount of roles rather than just the stereotypes of your race/ethnicity. White privilege is not having to deal with well-documented psychological effects of discrimination against non-whites. White privilege is having your history be so frequently represented in society that you don't need a month set aside to have widespread acknowledgement of it. White privilege is having a greater likelihood that your family was able to pass wealth down to you because they didn't have to deal with the discrimination that prevented them from acquiring it. White privilege is, with all things besides race being equal, you are multiple times more likely to receive a more lenient sentence than non-whites when you commit the same crime.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

ThePlayDrive said:

Dude, white privilege is nothing more than "flip side" of racism and discrimination against non-whites (and the consequences of both). If you believe that racism and discrimination against non-whites exist, then you believe that white privilege exists. If you don't believe that white privilege exists, then you also don't believe that racism and discrimination exist.

So, do you believe that racism and discrimination against non-whites exist? It's a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

And for specific examples of "white privilege": White privilege is not having to deal with the legacy of extreme systemic discrimination. White privilege is not having to worry that your personal failures will be seen by others as proof of significantly harmful stereotypes and a representation of your entire "race." White privilege is being able to see "yourself" dominate the media and be represented in a significantly diverse amount of roles rather than just the stereotypes of your race/ethnicity. White privilege is not having to deal with well-documented psychological effects of discrimination against non-whites. White privilege is having your history be so frequently represented in society that you don't need a month set aside to have widespread acknowledgement of it. White privilege is having a greater likelihood that your family was able to pass wealth down to you because they didn't have to deal with the discrimination that prevented them from acquiring it. White privilege is, with all things besides race being equal, you are multiple times more likely to receive a more lenient sentence than non-whites when you commit the same crime.

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i dont htink SOME people inderstand this fact, they make up in thier head that it means something else than basic racism against non-whites

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

AlabamaPaul said:

Posters tend to try to amplify their beliefs and seek out others that might agree. I'm fairly new here, but I believe discussion is a better way to get YOUR beliefs across to them...

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So do I. Endlessly repeated ad homs about how those who disagree are "liars" or "dishonest" or "moronic" stifle civil discourse. I'm all for vigorous debate--it's why I post at DP. Personal insults are a distraction.

Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

Objective-J said:

i dont htink SOME people inderstand this fact, they make up in thier head that it means something else than basic racism against non-whites

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I think the problem is that a lot of people are unable to divorce the word "privilege" from wealth. They automatically envision white privilege to mean that all white people are living in fancy houses and never have any problems. That's not what it means. The vast majority of people in this thread who have expressed doubt that white privilege exists seem to really have ZERO idea of what the term "white privilege" even refers to.