View Poll Results: Does "white privilege exist"?

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  • Yes, and it is a problem we should fight to fix.

    34 35.42%
  • Yes, but it is not an issue. Whites should have first privilege in nations they built.

    4 4.17%
  • No, white privilege does not exist

    58 60.42%
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Thread: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?[W: 356]

  1. #381
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    1.) real problem?

    thats subjective as i said earlier IMO i dont htink it needs special attention more so than what we already do, freedom, rights, discrimination laws, civil rights etc

    other may feel its no problem other may want more done for it

    2.) again as i said earlier bigotry, special treatment, discrimination, favoritism exists based on gender, sexuality, races, religion age, disabilities, looks etc
    2a.) who knows what the exact extent is, id imagine they exist on a majority vs minority scale just like most things
    3.) of course not for this subject BUT certain subjective subjects can do this
    4.) no didnt say this either, people know it does because of the factual support
    5.) nope again you have it wrong, the facts support it does, if you think that no instances of it exist you are just ignore reality and facts. Also i dont "want" people to believe it because i dont care if they do. Their belief doesnt impact facts.

    are there any factual stories, reports that people were hired, promoted, treated special etc etc etc simply because they were white? yes therefore it exists

    again like i already said like 20 times, if you want to debate how much, to what extent and when, where and why it does that's fine but denying it is denying facts
    I am not denying anything really, it is hard to deny something that seems to defy a uniform definition. In my research of the term "white privilege" I found that the term is very subjective and misused in the aspect that it is generalized to infer racial prejudiced activity of many different types. It seems to be a catch all phrase. A way to accuse an entire race of being prejudice without truly laying blame. Most sources that I read entirely ignored other factors that are in play. There is such a thing called social sciences yet most people talking about white privilege do not use any of those methods.

    Yes indeed the entire concept of white privilege is subjective enough to make me skeptical of its relevance and the need to have the term when other words already cover such social issues. Questioning that relevance in no way makes the claim that one is denying anything like what you mentioned. Another red flag that I noticed is that the term white privilege seems to be used as a derogative slam on white people in general. It makes the claim that white people are unfair and that we do not even know how unfair that we are being. I am always skeptical of something that people say that a entire race is doing but they are unable to see it. Such claims have been made about blacks time and time again. But everyone always points out how that assertion is prejudice yet when the same logic is applied to whites everyone ignores it.

    The reason that people like me want the facts and the proof the methodology of how white privilege is defined is because we want things to be straight up. If there is something that can be done to avoid making people feel unwanted or worse then we need to get to the bottom of this. Not just claiming that something exists while being unable to say that its anything more than subjective.

  2. #382
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    1.)I am not denying anything really, it is hard to deny something that seems to defy a uniform definition. In my research of the term "white privilege" I found that the term is very subjective and misused in the aspect that it is generalized to infer racial prejudiced activity of many different types. It seems to be a catch all phrase.

    2.) A way to accuse an entire race of being prejudice without truly laying blame. Most sources that I read entirely ignored other factors that are in play. There is such a thing called social sciences yet most people talking about white privilege do not use any of those methods.

    3.)Yes indeed the entire concept of white privilege is subjective enough to make me skeptical of its relevance and the need to have the term when other words already cover such social issues. Questioning that relevance in no way makes the claim that one is denying anything like what you mentioned. Another red flag that I noticed is that the term white privilege seems to be used as a derogative slam on white people in general. It makes the claim that white people are unfair and that we do not even know how unfair that we are being. I am always skeptical of something that people say that a entire race is doing but they are unable to see it. Such claims have been made about blacks time and time again. But everyone always points out how that assertion is prejudice yet when the same logic is applied to whites everyone ignores it.

    4.)The reason that people like me want the facts and the proof the methodology of how white privilege is defined is because we want things to be straight up. If there is something that can be done to avoid making people feel unwanted or worse then we need to get to the bottom of this. Not just claiming that something exists while being unable to say that its anything more than subjective.
    1.)it has a uniform definition. look up privilege, its that simple
    2.) it doesnt accuse a whole race of racism, thats nonsense lol
    3.) again its NOT against all white people LMAO nor does it have to do with the whole race being racist, thats is also nonsenical. You do know the majority of people in this thread that acknowledge the fact its exists are white right? Seems you are making a lot of stuff up.
    4.) its not subjective, its factual and its racism

    like i said this is all you need to ask yourself:

    are there any factual stories, reports that people were hired, promoted, treated special etc etc etc simply because they were white? yes therefore it exists

    anything else you try to make up or add to it is on you and has nothgin to do with it factually still existing.

    WHat part arent you getting?
    Last edited by AGENT J; 02-22-13 at 02:32 AM.
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  3. #383
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptinSarcastic View Post
    Hey German Guy, I just read and thought it was interesting.

    I was having a discussion with my brother (who has spent a lot of time in Germany) about Muslims in Europe generally and how there is a huge problem of unemployment, underemployment, and Muslims living in ghetto's. I understand this is a very big problem in France and a significant problem in Germany.

    He argued that the problem was with the Muslims who refused to integrate and chose to live in ghettos.

    I argued that the Muslims were being discriminated against and as opposed to not assimilating, their difference were not being accepted by Germans and they were pushed to the ghettos as a result of discrimination. If this is the case, it is not disimiliar to the plight of blacks in America.

    Contrasting Muslims in America with Muslims in Europe, we find that in almost every way, American Muslims are well above average. They only make about 25 of the population, but they tend make more money, have more education, longer marriages, lower debt, lower crime rates than the general population.

    I believe that discrimination, especially, but not exlusively, institutional repression, has an effect on groups that is not easily corrected.

    I read a study once about repression in Ireland a few decades back. The Irish Protestants were the repressors and the Irish Catholics were the repressed. The study found, among other things, that the irish Catholics had an average of 15 point lower IQ than the Irish Protestants. What is fascinating is that these people were so close genetically that they could have been close cousins, so clearly there was nothing biological about the difference, it was all the result of repression.

    What do you make of the Muslim issue in Europe?

    Is there a white advantage?
    My guess is that it's a mix of both, concerning Muslims in Germany.

    First, I think the problem is not as grave as in France, for example, and there are actually not few immigrants in Germany from Muslim countries who achieve to some extent. But there certainly is a large number of Muslim immigrants who don't, and there are problems that come with this problem.

    There have been studies that found that there is indeed prejudice on the side of teachers and employers in Germany against Muslims (usually immigrants from Turkey in our case): When the application letters are absolutely identical, people with Turkish sounding names have a significantly lower chance to be invited to job interviews. The mostly public German education system has been found to advantage children from families with better education background and perpetuating the low performance of children with a low social background -- and most immigrants from Muslim countries are living in a socially bad situation. On top of that, there are many prejudices, which may or may not contain a true core, such as "Muslims are aggressive/religious fanatics/treat women bad/are terrorists/stick to their own kind" and so on, which make it difficult for those immigrants who aim at blending in to achieve that.

    That's one side. On the other side, I'd say it is indeed a problem that many immigrants from Muslim countries in Germany maintain a culture that's not compatible with our way of life: Misogynist views, general intolerance towards certain minorities such as Jews or homosexuals, ideas of religious supremacy, paternalist-authoritarian attitudes and traditions. Many of these attitudes are not necessarily specifically Muslim, as many people two or three generations ago in Germany shared similar ideas. But they are clashing with today's pluralist and secular society in Germany. These attitudes are an obstacle on the side of the immigrants when it comes to integration. In extreme cases, this mutual alienation causes them to get even more radical in their views, joining religious and/or political extremist groups such as radical islamists.

    A counter-reaction on the side of natives then is xenophobic extremism, such as displayed in the actions of islamophobic groups, who fuel hatred against Muslim immigrants in general, usually within far-right action groups with nationalistic and chauvinistic views.

    So IMO, the problem is something both sides have to work on together, not against each other. Waging culture wars against "these evil Muslims" is only going to increase the rift on both sides and will not possibly yield any constructive solution to the problems that exist. Disarmament of hateful rejection and generalization of "the other side" is required on both sides.

    As for the difference between Muslims in America and Germany, my guess is this has to do with the social background of the respective immigrants: Germany invited many Turkish people in the 70s and 80s as cheap labor. They usually came from the poorest regions of Turkey, had only few education and even less money, and were hired in Germany for the dirty works no German wanted to do. In America, on the other side, my guess is that especially highly educated people from Muslim countries, with either much money or good education, are allowed access to a Green Card or other means of permanent residence.
    Last edited by German guy; 02-22-13 at 02:35 AM.
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  4. #384
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    My guess is that it's a mix of both, concerning Muslims in Germany.

    First, I think the problem is not as grave as in France, for example, and there are actually not few immigrants in Germany from Muslim countries who achieve to some extent. But there certainly is a large number of Muslim immigrants who don't, and there are problems that come with this problem.

    There have been studies that found that there is indeed prejudice on the side of teachers and employers in Germany against Muslims (usually immigrants from Turkey in our case): When the application letters are absolutely identical, people with Turkish sounding names have a significantly lower chance to be invited to job interviews. The mostly public German education system has been found to advantage children from families with better education background and perpetuating the low performance of children with a low social background -- and most immigrants from Muslim countries are living in a socially bad situation. On top of that, there are many prejudices, which may or may not contain a true core, such as "Muslims are aggressive/religious fanatics/treat women bad/are terrorists/stick to their own kind" and so on, which make it difficult for those immigrants who aim at blending in to achieve that.

    That's one side. On the other side, I'd say it is indeed a problem that many immigrants from Muslim countries in Germany maintain a culture that's not compatible with our way of life: Misogynist views, general intolerance towards certain minorities such as Jews or homosexuals, ideas of religious supremacy, paternalist-authoritarian attitudes and traditions. Many of these attitudes are not necessarily specifically Muslim, as many people two or three generations ago in Germany shared similar ideas. But they are clashing with today's pluralist and secular society in Germany. These attitudes are an obstacle on the side of the immigrants when it comes to integration. In extreme cases, this mutual alienation causes them to get even more radical in their views, joining religious and/or political extremist groups such as radical islamists.

    A counter-reaction on the side of natives then is xenophobic extremism, such as displayed in the actions of islamophobic groups, who fuel hatred against Muslim immigrants in general, usually within far-right action groups with nationalistic and chauvinistic views.

    So IMO, the problem is something both sides have to work on together, not against each other. Waging culture wars against "these evil Muslims" is only going to increase the rift on both sides and will not possibly yield any constructive solution to the problems that exist. Disarmament of hateful rejection and generalization of "the other side" is required on both sides.

    As for the difference between Muslims in America and Germany, my guess is this has to do with the social background of the respective immigrants: Germany invited many Turkish people in the 70s and 80s as cheap labor. They usually came from the poorest regions of Turkey, had only few education and even less money, and were hired in Germany for the dirty works no German wanted to do. In America, on the other side, my guess is that especially highly educated people from Muslim countries, with either much money or good education, are allowed access to a Green Card or other means of permanent residence.
    I think you are probably mostly correct on American Muslims, not so much that they had money, but the education in Iraq and Iran before they went crazy was very good.

    On the Muslims issue, you could almost exchange the word Muslims for black and have an accurate description of race relations in this country, including (historically) the claimed for violence and especially rape.

    Let's try it...

    There have been studies that found that there is indeed prejudice on the side of teachers and employers in America against blacks: When the application letters are absolutely identical, people with black sounding names have a significantly lower chance to be invited to job interviews. The mostly American education system has been found to advantage children from families with better education background and perpetuating the low performance of children with a low social background -- and most blacks are living in a socially bad situation. On top of that, there are many prejudices, which may or may not contain a true core, such as "blacks are aggressive/treat women bad/are criminals/stick to their own kind" and so on, which make it difficult for those blacks who aim at blending in to achieve that.

    Yup, very few alterations and it fits.

    I think the sad thing is that it costs societies SO much to be repressive. American Muslims, while hated by Islamaphobes, and who have somewhat maintained their religious identities, have also assimilated into American culture. While they love their faith, most love America far more than the countries they came from BECAUSE of the freedom. The anti-Islamic groups think they want to make America like islamic countries with Sharia law when in fact they LEFT those countries because of things like Sharia Law. I believe if accepted, they may have done the same in Europe. But it is a different circumstance with so many poor Muslim laborers brought into Europe after WW2 to rebuild. In any case, judging people on anything but individual merits is an expensive bit of idiocy on the part of our societies.

  5. #385
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptinSarcastic View Post
    I think you are probably mostly correct on American Muslims, not so much that they had money, but the education in Iraq and Iran before they went crazy was very good.

    On the Muslims issue, you could almost exchange the word Muslims for black and have an accurate description of race relations in this country, including (historically) the claimed for violence and especially rape.

    Let's try it...

    There have been studies that found that there is indeed prejudice on the side of teachers and employers in America against blacks: When the application letters are absolutely identical, people with black sounding names have a significantly lower chance to be invited to job interviews. The mostly American education system has been found to advantage children from families with better education background and perpetuating the low performance of children with a low social background -- and most blacks are living in a socially bad situation. On top of that, there are many prejudices, which may or may not contain a true core, such as "blacks are aggressive/treat women bad/are criminals/stick to their own kind" and so on, which make it difficult for those blacks who aim at blending in to achieve that.

    Yup, very few alterations and it fits.

    I think the sad thing is that it costs societies SO much to be repressive. American Muslims, while hated by Islamaphobes, and who have somewhat maintained their religious identities, have also assimilated into American culture. While they love their faith, most love America far more than the countries they came from BECAUSE of the freedom. The anti-Islamic groups think they want to make America like islamic countries with Sharia law when in fact they LEFT those countries because of things like Sharia Law. I believe if accepted, they may have done the same in Europe. But it is a different circumstance with so many poor Muslim laborers brought into Europe after WW2 to rebuild. In any case, judging people on anything but individual merits is an expensive bit of idiocy on the part of our societies.
    Just out of curiosity: Is there such a thing as "black sounding names" in America?

    My guess is that much of what is often made out to be a cultural problem actually is to a larger part a social problem (concerning social situation and status). I guess if you sent thousands of low educated, deeply catholic unemployed farm laborers from the Bavarian countryside to the modern city of Istanbul, you'd probably have a similar situation, vice versa.

    However, I think the cultural rift is indeed a problem. While extreme crimes such as "honor killings" or calls for Sharia law are rather the exception, the general traditional view of gender roles and family structures seems to be common among many Muslim immigrants. Probably the education system is the key: When children from such families have the opportunity to achieve, they'll soon adopt a more "German" lifestyle and attitudes.

    My personal experience with these immigrants is mixed. There is one woman who is second generation from Turkey whom I consider a close friend, and several more acquaintances, co-workers and fellow students. Then there are more I meet casually on the street or at fast-food shops which they're running. In case of those I know better, they seem perfectly integrated, and the only thing that makes you recognize them as immigrants is their physical appearance. Said woman is even married to a native German husband. Another guy I met at college used to serve in the army for a couple of years and had the nickname "the Osman Prussian", which suited him well, IMO.

    On the other side, you often hear from native women who are reluctant to buy at döner kebap shops, because they're used to awkward remarks and an attitude by male Turks against German women, which these women consider disgusting. It's obviously more than just a prejudice, that especially many young male immigrants don't know how to behave towards women, or at least native women (you sometimes hear they are taught in their families that women who have sex before marriage are "bitches", hence all German women are bitches, so why shouldn't you treat them like that?).

    In the public sphere, the media and so on, there are a few outstanding examples of well integrated Turkish people -- politicians, journalists, a few intellectuals, comedians, actors -- but in general, I'd say they are still underrepresented, compared to their share of the population.
    Last edited by German guy; 02-22-13 at 03:22 AM.
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  6. #386
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    How do you prove privledge exists emipiracally?
    Socio-economic discrepancies, bureaucratic treatment of groups, incarceration rates, wealth distribution, application of laws, etc.
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    There is data that indicates various groups are treated differently by the criminal justice system, for example. Black males, as an example are more likely to be convicted by jurors (which if they did it is a good thing in my opinion) than other groups (not good if those of other groups are just as guilty). Black males are also more likely to receive harsher sentences for the same exact crimes than others. Again, little sympathy from me for criminals and im happy they're off the streets but if undeniable statistics prove society gives some more of a benefit of the doubt and more leniency than others whole in some cases others not fitting the profile of a 'decent looking guy' are looked upon more critically then we as a society might need to need to ask ourselves are we truly being fair especially if we're ever selected for jury duty or are interviewing candidates for a job, a promotion or evaluating for pay raises. I think most people really want to be fair but subconsciously we might inadvertently be less fair that we consciously realize.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 02-22-13 at 08:00 AM.
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Socio-economic discrepancies, bureaucratic treatment of groups, incarceration rates, wealth distribution, application of laws, etc.
    Statistical evidence correct? Well this thread could use some. If people say its there then they should be able to prove it, and provide some evidence.
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  9. #389
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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    2. It's easy for a white heterosexual male to say "no, there doesn't need to be an exceedingly strong endeavor to correct for white privilege," don't you think?
    I would say it is just as easy for a non-white heterosexual male to say "oh, there does indeed need to be an endeavor to correct for white privilege".





    Anywho, what differentiates nowadays isn't race or even really any more gender - it's behavior. Whites who make the same good decisions see roughly the same rewards as blacks or hispanics or asians, just as whites who make the same poor decisions see roughly the same unfortunate circumstances as all the forementioned. It is simply that among our populace the poor decisions that tend to cause those things we deem "failures" at life (dropping out of school, divorce, poverty, drug abuse, etc.) tend to be more concentrated in our hispanic and black communities, and less concentrated in our white and even less concentrated in our asian communities.

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    Re: Does "white privilege" exist? If so, should it be corrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Socio-economic discrepancies, bureaucratic treatment of groups, incarceration rates, wealth distribution, application of laws, etc.

    That doesn't prove privilege exists any more than I could prove that Americans are biased in favor of doctors by showing the same things.

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