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Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?


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Better question is what happens when it works for the states that actually care about their people?? What will the Republicans do then. My guess it will be the final nail in the coffin.
 
Better question is what happens when it works for the states that actually care about their people?? What will the Republicans do then. My guess it will be the final nail in the coffin.

Great - others are talking about economics, and you're talking about touchy-feely girl crap.

If it works, prepare to shell out more.
 
Right, so. Obamacare is now bending the cost-curve up, millions are going to lose their health insurance, the IRS is saying that the cheapest plan under Obamacares' exchanges will cost $20,000 for a family of five by 2016 and increase out of pocket costs even AFTER the subsidies, the hundreds of billions in cuts to Medicare to fund the program will cause many doctors to stop taking Medicare patients, and if we don't make those cuts to providers, then the costs of Obamacare, which are already rising, to explode. 26 States are refusing to work with HHS, and Obamacare's implementation, already well behind track threatens to fall further and further behind even as it is announced that they will not, actually, technically, so-to-speak, be able to help the people the bill was purported to aid.




So. As this disaster of a behemoth of a bill continues to flail and fail, who are the Democrats going to blame? How far down the rabbit hole are they willing to go, ears plugged, eyes closed?




One thing is being overlooked here: Who will Republicans blame for the success of Obamacare, for the GOP's failure to shut it down?

I nominate the U.S. Supreme Court.

Do you have any suspects?




Please note that so far all GOP efforts to stop Obamacare have failed miserably.
 
It was a lung transplant, not a liver. Isn't the bureaucracy wonderful? The Sebelius Death Panel at Work.
In the end, due to a public outcry... and a judge... thanks to the ice cold testimony of Sebelius... she got her life saving transplant.

Sebelius... the cold iron fist of government healthkare.
[video]http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/04/sebelius-i-cant-suspend-the-lung-transplant-rules-for-a-dying-10-year-old/[/video]

A girl that was dying needed a transplant to live, and requirements had to be lifted so that she was eligible.

If you want to call that a death panel, I think you have it backwards. The public outcry over this individual case compelled some judges and bureaucrats to change the rules for her, even when they wanted to stay out of the way. So they made a decision that saved her life by giving her the lung. Therefore, someone else who was waiting on a lung who was eligible under the rules lost their chance at receiving the lung. It's just that there are no human interest stories in the news about that person for whatever reason.

If you're looking for a death panel, there it is. The people you thank for inserting themselves into the system saved a girl's life at the cost of someone else's.

You're saying that it's unfair that she wasn't going to get the lung. So you are invoking emotion and sympathy for her in order to favor her over someone else. Aren't you part of a death panel, saying she should live, not another person?

There is a list of over 100,000 people waiting for an organ transplant. They're not waiting because of some bureaucratic paperwork or red tape, they are waiting because there is a shortage of actual viable organs to give them. Because of how precious those few organs are, medical and health care professionals have instituted procedures and guidelines on how to make the most effective use of them and how to handle the mass of people that need them, prioritizing them in a way that no matter what will never be able to save everyone.

So if I understand it right, Sebelius didn't want to disturb that delicate system, but enough people started screaming "death panel" that they actually forced her into one.
 
A girl that was dying needed a transplant to live, and requirements had to be lifted so that she was eligible.

If you want to call that a death panel, I think you have it backwards. The public outcry over this individual case compelled some judges and bureaucrats to change the rules for her, even when they wanted to stay out of the way. So they made a decision that saved her life by giving her the lung. Therefore, someone else who was waiting on a lung who was eligible under the rules lost their chance at receiving the lung. It's just that there are no human interest stories in the news about that person for whatever reason.

If you're looking for a death panel, there it is. The people you thank for inserting themselves into the system saved a girl's life at the cost of someone else's.

You're saying that it's unfair that she wasn't going to get the lung. So you are invoking emotion and sympathy for her in order to favor her over someone else. Aren't you part of a death panel, saying she should live, not another person?

There is a list of over 100,000 people waiting for an organ transplant. They're not waiting because of some bureaucratic paperwork or red tape, they are waiting because there is a shortage of actual viable organs to give them. Because of how precious those few organs are, medical and health care professionals have instituted procedures and guidelines on how to make the most effective use of them and how to handle the mass of people that need them, prioritizing them in a way that no matter what will never be able to save everyone.

So if I understand it right, Sebelius didn't want to disturb that delicate system, but enough people started screaming "death panel" that they actually forced her into one.

I've been told at a transplant center that more than likely a heart transplant is in my future
 
I've been told at a transplant center that more than likely a heart transplant is in my future

Are you serious? What's your situation?

And less important to your health, what's your take on this issue?

All the best.
 
I think the key elements of Obamacare will survive:

- Universal health coverage to all Americans
- Previously existing conditions not a basis for exclusion
- No lifetime limits

The rest is up for tweaking. Personally, I think employer based health insurance is the biggest problem and to a lesser degree, health insurance at all. Insurance companies exist for one reason only, to make money. There's nothing wrong with making money but ideally where there's a need that otherwise will not be met. We don't need cable-TV insurance to have cable-TV. We don't need fitness center insurance to join a gym. We don't need groceries insurance to buy food. We shouldn't need health insurance to have healthcare. There are other models that can be developed to pay for healthcare cost that don't include a middle-man mark up, doesn't involve your employer, can create market forces competition that drive down costs and encourages innovation, incentivizes healthy living and can treat everything from routine check-up preventive care to catastrophic major conditions for one affordable flat monthly rate. It would require an everybody-in individual mandate however where payment is tied to something we cannot avoid such as payroll deducted but into private healthcare associations run by hospitals or doctors groups that compete against each other for annual memberships where the whole country re-ups or switches the same month every year.
 
I think the key elements of Obamacare will survive:

- Universal health coverage to all Americans
- Previously existing conditions not a basis for exclusion
- No lifetime limits

Remember, it's not universal yet. You can opt out. Of course you'll be opting in as soon as you need it.
 
Remember, it's not universal yet. You can opt out. Of course you'll be opting in as soon as you need it.

That's one of many things that need to be fixed.
 
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Are you serious? What's your situation?

And less important to your health, what's your take on this issue?

All the best.

Yes I am serious I have a very rare (1 out of 100k) congenital heart defect.

So far I've been very lucky. I was told a 1/3 stay the same a 1/3 get worse and a 1/3 show improvement. I'm at the top of that last 1/3.

My take is "wow wgat a strange trip"
 
Yes I am serious I have a very rare (1 out of 100k) congenital heart defect.

So far I've been very lucky. I was told a 1/3 stay the same a 1/3 get worse and a 1/3 show improvement. I'm at the top of that last 1/3.

My take is "wow wgat a strange trip"

Good to hear. Have you had to investigate the organ transplant system before? If so, does it seem well run or flawed?
 
Good to hear. Have you had to investigate the organ transplant system before? If so, does it seem well run or flawed?

It is my first journey. And I'm lucky I go to one of the top transplant centers in the country and it is pretty well run.

I've moved over though to the congestive heart failure clinic though.

There are actually artificial hearts and pumps now that people can live on while waiting for a transplant.
 
Better question is what happens when it works for the states that actually care about their people?? What will the Republicans do then. My guess it will be the final nail in the coffin.

If there was evidence Socialist systems work I'd be the first o say OK! But it doesn't. Show me a socialist system that works. You can't.

They're inefficient, slow, corrupt and costly. That's the effect when socialist HIV enters the system.
 
It's NOT MY POLL. Whoops!

CPWILL started the poll... so I was wondering what the hell you were talking about... hence the retracing your comment to my post which was not past tense.

OC can wipe the egg of your face... I'll be generous... crap like that can happen.

I see. I made a comment about cpwill's poll back in February and you commented on what I said in September. Didn't remember who made the poll. However, since you commented in the way that you did, you presented that you agree with the poll. Therefore, by proxy, my comment remains on target.

See, zim... when you stick your nose into these situations, you tend to get it blown off.


ROTFLOL... yeah right. You don't post up here because I'd boot your can all over DP... "inaccuracies and fallacies"... (ahem... like the huge dump of yours in this post... above?) if it's so easy, why not come out and destroy me... LOL...?

In the words of our scummy little Secretary of State... Bring It On.

Your posts bore me zim. Dumb partisan hack statements that have no basis in reality, misrepresent issues, and demonstrate a purposefully complete lack of understanding of basic definitions. Correcting you would be a full time job. I prefer to just allow your posts to stand for themselves and let people evaluate them on their lack of merit. The non-hacks around here recognize them for what they are: inconsequential. In general, zim, you do my work for me.
 
I tend to not interact with you much upstairs, zim. Your posts tend to be dumb partisan hack comments filled with inaccuracies and fallacies which really don't interest me much. I learned this the first time I interacted with you back in 2008 when you couldn't correctly define the word "socialist".



My comment was a response to your poll question. Your poll question was flawed as it uses a begging the question logical fallacy and assumes that Obamacare WILL fail... a future tense comment. One cannot state that something HAS failed until it actually DOES fail... and for something to fail it has to actually apply. Obamacare will not apply until 2014. My comment demonstrated your fallacy (something that most of your posts contain) and showed that in order for your statement to make any sense, it must be PAST tense, which it is not.

There. Now that I have diagrammed this situation for you, demonstrated that your entire thread is based on a stupid logical fallacy, showed that you don't understand verb tenses, please feel free to comment with your partisan screaming of "Nuh, Uh".

Now that we have straightened out you wrongly attributed the OP and Poll to me... let's straighten out Paragraph 1 of your post once and forever.

1. You folks didn't like my definition of Socialist. Why? Perhaps it is because you don't like being associated with a knowingly failed ideology.

2. You folks claim that because the state does not control the means of production, it's not socialist. That's cute. It's also intellectually bankrupt.
A party that foments and pushes Socialist legislation, and a party of supporters that propagandize for it... are pushing "Socialism", and are acting like "Socialists". And that IS the behavior of most Demokrats... aka Socialists of Amerika Partei (SAPs). For the mass of Demokrats, there doesn't seem to be a Socialist program or legislation they disapprove of.

3. Because you don't accept my definition:
zimmer-albums-conservitoons-picture67153468-socialism-definition-dummies.jpg


zimmer-albums-conservitoons-picture67153469-socialist-definition-google.jpg


So... now that we've cleared that up, and you've been educated... I invite you up here for some more. Don't be shy :)
 
I see. I made a comment about cpwill's poll back in February and you commented on what I said in September. Didn't remember who made the poll. However, since you commented in the way that you did, you presented that you agree with the poll. Therefore, by proxy, my comment remains on target.

See, zim... when you stick your nose into these situations, you tend to get it blown off.
Ah... wrong... but nice try.

You attribute the poll to me... which wasn't mine and attempted to make an argument from it. Now you're scurrying around trying to cover your ass for blowing that big time.

You would have done better to have accepted my gracious offer, but no... you keep digging deeper. This has all the marks of Obama all over it. Fark up... and then try a new tactic as cover... one that blows up in your face.



Your posts bore me zim.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Dumb partisan hack statements that have no basis in reality, misrepresent issues, and demonstrate a purposefully complete lack of understanding of basic definitions.
If it is so easy... why not take a second and kill the arguments? You can't... so you avoid. But you seem to love the underground. Why so shy here? I smell fear.

Correcting you would be a full time job. I prefer to just allow your posts to stand for themselves and let people evaluate them on their lack of merit. The non-hacks around here recognize them for what they are: inconsequential. In general, zim, you do my work for me.
More blarney. Ahem... who's correcting who here?

You've proven you are intellectually bankrupt, and The "Socialism" bit proved it. You failed to face the most obvious bit of reality.

CC... You're an easy mark, as most Leftists are, and would be picking up your debating teeth all over DP... hence your absence.

You've engaged me once here in a long while and what happened?

1. You attributed the OP to the wrong person... and based your argument on it.
2. Your claim that you don't debate me because back in 2008 I couldn't define "Socialism"... PURE BS.
3. I define "socialism" and "socialist" for you... yet again... and you obviously don't like the definition, proving once again you're intellectually bankrupt.
4. You try to twist out of the misappropriated post with further BS.

ROTFLOL... of course... you'll claim victory. It's the Leftists Way. Fail miserably and claim victory.
 
Now that we have straightened out you wrongly attributed the OP and Poll to me... let's straighten out Paragraph 1 of your post once and forever.

No, I clearly demonstrated that, by proxy, since you agreed with the poll, my post was on target. Trying to distance yourself from an idiotic, partisan poll now won't do you any good. You've already associated yourself with it.

1. You folks didn't like my definition of Socialist. Why? Perhaps it is because you don't like being associated with a knowingly failed ideology.

See, this is you making stuff up because you can't debate what actually is the issue. You showed that you didn't know what the definition of the word "socialist" actually is. You attributed it, in a partisan hack and invalid way to things that are not socialist. You were corrected. You have failed to learn that correction and have continued to present an inaccurate definition since. The only fault that is mine is that I have continued to allow you to do this without reminding you of the correction.

2. You folks claim that because the state does not control the means of production, it's not socialist. That's cute. It's also intellectually bankrupt.
A party that foments and pushes Socialist legislation, and a party of supporters that propagandize for it... are pushing "Socialism", and are acting like "Socialists". And that IS the behavior of most Demokrats... aka Socialists of Amerika Partei (SAPs). For the mass of Demokrats, there doesn't seem to be a Socialist program or legislation they disapprove of.

Poor zim. Doesn't understand the concept of overgeneralizing. This is your most common error when you debate. You will take a set of concept, attribute a definition to them, and then overgeneralize, claiming that the entirety of the group in question is defined by your overgeneralization. Here, let me demonstrate:

Conservatives do not believe in gay marriage.
Conservatives do not believe in affirmative action.
Conservatives do not support abortion rights... and therefore do not support the rights of women.
Not supporting minority groups is discrimination.
Therefore, conservatives are bigots.

See what happens when you overgeneralize and you idiotic definitive associations? Your argument looks DUMB. Now, do I believe what I wrote above? Yes and no. I believe that conservatives, in general, believe the first three things... but for a variety of reasons. My fourth line is an incorrect definition and omits the possibility for MANY other reasons that conservatives might believe those things (state's rights, different and valid definitions of both assistance and life, for example). Because the fourth line is incorrect, my fifth line conclusion is illogical. It is also illogical because it overgeneralizes. Now, do I think you will admit to doing this? Nah. You post like a hack and we know from MRI scans that when a hack is confronted with the lack of logic or accuracy of their position, cognitive dissonance sets in and they are unable to accept their errors. So no, I have no illusions that you will listen to anything I say. You can't. It would destroy your entire false belief system. No, I present this so that others will know how you post and how to deal with you.

3. Because you don't accept my definition:
zimmer-albums-conservitoons-picture67153468-socialism-definition-dummies.jpg


zimmer-albums-conservitoons-picture67153469-socialist-definition-google.jpg


So... now that we've cleared that up, and you've been educated... I invite you up here for some more. Don't be shy :)

Guess what zim? You still don't know the difference between a socialist government and a government that has some socialist policies. I tried to teach you this way back in a thread in 2009, but you refused to listen... hence your continued inaccurate posting for the past 4 years.

Keep being wrong and illogical, zim. It's good contrast.
 
Ah... wrong... but nice try.

You attribute the poll to me... which wasn't mine and attempted to make an argument from it. Now you're scurrying around trying to cover your ass for blowing that big time.

You would have done better to have accepted my gracious offer, but no... you keep digging deeper. This has all the marks of Obama all over it. Fark up... and then try a new tactic as cover... one that blows up in your face.

Poor zim. Still have problems with interpreting incorrectly what people say. I stated that the poll wasn't yours. I also stated that you agreed with it completely, so by proxy, my positions stand. And they do. You do seem to never tire of being wrong.


Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

You could try to improve them, but I don't think that's in your wheelhouse.

If it is so easy... why not take a second and kill the arguments? You can't... so you avoid. But you seem to love the underground. Why so shy here? I smell fear.

I already have and have been completely successful. See zim, since your posts are based totally on logical fallacies, all I have to do is present their lack of logic to prove them wrong. And your fallacies are so glaring that doing so takes no effort at all.


More blarney. Ahem... who's correcting who here?

I am correcting you. You of course are unwilling to accept that and prefer to remain mistaken. That's OK with me.

You've proven you are intellectually bankrupt, and The "Socialism" bit proved it. You failed to face the most obvious bit of reality.

CC... You're an easy mark, as most Leftists are, and would be picking up your debating teeth all over DP... hence your absence.

I've already explained my absence. Most people who don't debate you, don't because your positions are absurd, dishonest, and illogical. These things define what you write, zim. Whole forum knows it.

You've engaged me once here in a long while and what happened?

I easily destroyed you.

1. You attributed the OP to the wrong person... and based your argument on it.

This is partially the appeal to logic logical fallacy. I also based my argument on your support for the poll, which I easily proved correct.

2. Your claim that you don't debate me because back in 2008 I couldn't define "Socialism"... PURE BS.

No, this is true and since you cannot know my motivations for not debating you until I say them, your opinion on the matter is meaningless.

That's 2 for 2 you got wrong.

3. I define "socialism" and "socialist" for you... yet again... and you obviously don't like the definition, proving once again you're intellectually bankrupt.

Your definitions are irrelevant to how you use them. The fact that you ignore this part of the issue demonstrates your intellectual dishonesty.

That's 3 for 3 on being wrong.

4. You try to twist out of the misappropriated post with further BS.

No, after proving you wrong, I stepped back, admired my work and realized there was little else to do.

4 for 4 in being wrong. And zim's perfect record is still intact.

ROTFLOL... of course... you'll claim victory. It's the Leftists Way. Fail miserably and claim victory.

I claim victory because I won... as is typical when anyone debates you, the individual who posts as the quintessential conservative hack.
 
From the start; Your misguided post in response to my comment about ObamaKare:

Zimmer: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/152107-democrats-blame-failure-obamacare-32.html#post1062297471

It is failing as we speak. It's designed to fail.

He's been acting like a Queen... handing out waivers to the faithful like they're party favors.

This is Obama's Benghazi to the medical community and nation. Another pure fark up by our Enfant Terrible in de White Ouse and Les Ensemble of Court Jesters in the Ouse and Senate that passed it using tricks.
You do not seem to understand verb tenses. In the context that I used the term "fail" means past tense. Since Obamacare has not been fully enacted as of yet, this would be the incorrect tense to use.

Seems like ever since you got to DP, zim, I'm correcting you on how you use words.
Here is your screw up.

You tried to put words into my mouth never uttered because you ascribe the OP to me, which wasn't mine.

I used the word "failing", and "designed to fail" as socialist systems do. Show me one that is a success.

I offered you a gracious out for ascribing the Poll to me, but in your arrogance you didn't take it. Since then you've tried muddying the waters in an effort to CYA.

Sorry... You screwed up, and your recovery isn't one. It's a failure. You should have quit when you were ahead... when I graciously offered you an out for your error. But no... you tried to spin it in an attempt to cover your screw up. Bad move.

I tend to not interact with you much upstairs, zim. Your posts tend to be dumb partisan hack comments filled with inaccuracies and fallacies which really don't interest me much. I learned this the first time I interacted with you back in 2008 when you couldn't correctly define the word "socialist".
You claimed I couldn't define socialism. Wrong. I couldn't define socialism to appease your intellectually bankrupt definition of it.

You can try to spin your way out of this... but that's all it is... spin.

Who got their ass kicked... and who is intellectually bankrupt? Like OC... you kicked your very own ass, and your intellectual bankruptcy on the terms Socialist and Socialism... says volumes.
 
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A girl that was dying needed a transplant to live, and requirements had to be lifted so that she was eligible.

I'd love to see Zimmer's response to this, but I doubt we're going to get anything other than vague comments and insults.

What is good about the transplant system is that the death panel is out in the open. We can see it and apparently we can actually change it as citizens and voters.

Compare this to how corporate insurance death panels are run. It is extremely hypocritical for people who are against government death panels to have nary a peep about the back room death panels going on in private insurance that virtually no one knows about until it's too late.

This suggests to me that the "death panel" crowd either doesn't actually care about death panels and are thus using it purely for political posturing, or they are ignorant about what is happening in private. Neither bode well for honest discussions with them.
 
Ahhh. the Twins are in action.

The VA is a great socialist system? Tell that to the vets. It's known for its problems.

And you do share the gene. I left quotes earlier in the thread from "Dummies" and "Google". Bone up. You and CC have wasted 5-years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/19/u...s-hospital-in-mississippi.html?pagewanted=all

A Pattern of Problems at a Hospital for Veterans
By JAMES DAO
Published: March 18, 2013

WASHINGTON — In an unusually strong letter sent to the White House on Monday, the office that handles complaints from federal whistle-blowers says it has found a pattern of problems at a Department of Veterans Affairs medical center in Jackson, Miss., that raises serious questions about the hospital’s management practices.

The problems over the last six years include poor sterilization procedures, chronic understaffing of the primary care unit and missed diagnoses by the radiology department...
 
Ahhh. the Twins are in action.

The VA is a great socialist system? Tell that to the vets. It's known for its problems.

Did I say the VA or did I say the military?

For someone who claims I misrepresent everything (but can never prove it) you sure do it a lot yourself.

FYI, I'm book marking this as evidence that you deliberately misrepresented what I said and you've put words in my mouth I never said. You know, so I can actually prove it when I say it. Rather than just say it and then run away from proving it.

Notice what I linked. Is that the same link as this one?

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

And you do share the gene. I left quotes earlier in the thread from "Dummies" and "Google". Bone up. You and CC have wasted 5-years.

You must enjoy getting infractions.

Try use actual definitions. And definitions that define the word with the word are pointless.

Point still stands.You still can't define Socialism
 
Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
A girl that was dying needed a transplant to live, and requirements had to be lifted so that she was eligible.

I'd love to see Zimmer's response to this, but I doubt we're going to get anything other than vague comments and insults.

What is good about the transplant system is that the death panel is out in the open. We can see it and apparently we can actually change it as citizens and voters.

Compare this to how corporate insurance death panels are run. It is extremely hypocritical for people who are against government death panels to have nary a peep about the back room death panels going on in private insurance that virtually no one knows about until it's too late.

This suggests to me that the "death panel" crowd either doesn't actually care about death panels and are thus using it purely for political posturing, or they are ignorant about what is happening in private. Neither bode well for honest discussions with them.
You needed a public outcry to get action, and the Secretary herself wasn't going to lift a finger. Obamakare leaves these decisions to The Secretary. There's a quote about it earlier on.

When the government says "no", you're screwed. In the free market, you've got other options. Just ask the Canadians what their "other options" are.
 
Did I say the VA or did I say the military?
The VA doesn't service military? Veterans are not part of the military family? People entering the military are not promised as part of their service to their country healthcare?

For someone who claims I misrepresent everything (but can never prove it) you sure do it a lot yourself.
So... for a successful socialist system, your example is the military? My... what we have to look forward to... ROTFLOL... but hey... we're on our way. Soon we'll be set out for harvest in the potato fields like in the good 'ol USSR.

FYI, I'm book marking this as evidence that you deliberately misrepresenting what I said and you've put words in my mouth I never said. You know, so I can actually prove it when I say it. Rather than just say it and then run away from proving it.
ROTFLOL... do you know how many people will laugh their asses off reading that? Coming from you!
Notice what I linked. Is that the same link as this one?

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs
va.gov... and the VA is not known for its stellar performance. It should be. The vets should get the best of the best. But they don't.

You must enjoy getting infractions.

Try use actual definitions. And definitions that define the word with the word are pointless.
Infractions... insmakshuns... hit the report button.
ROTFLOL... like I said...the intellectually bankrupt don't like the definitions.

Point still stands.You still can't define Socialism
Intellectual bankruptcy seems to be one of your strong suits.
 
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