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Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?

  • They wil blame Republicans, claiming Obamacare was their idea

    Votes: 24 34.3%

  • They will blame themselves for not pushing single payer

    Votes: 8 11.4%

  • They will blame providers and insurers for attempting to survive

    Votes: 30 42.9%

  • IT WAS THAT VILLIAN, GEORGE BUSH!

    Votes: 33 47.1%
  • Total voters
    70
specklebang said:
Anybody that expects a political "promise" to achieve 100% of the purported goals, is not being realistic. I'm trying to think of even one time that such a thing has happened. Just as you can't fool all the people all the time, you can't satisfy all the people all the time.
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Your confusing satisfaction with success... As the President, or any politician for that matter, you shouldnt make promises you cant keep. Obviously with opposition in the government, not everything will pan out, but COST is a pretty big thing to be wrong about. And that cant be blamed on the opposition, it can be blamed on it being a bad idea. This bill isnt designes to satisfy people, its designed to do something it just cant do, and that is was makes it a failure.
 
They'll blame Romney saying that Obama was lead astray by Romneycare.
 
specklebang said:
Exactly my point about Obamacare. Success and/or failure is highly subjective.
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Trillions in debt and health care similar to bread lines in the Soviet Union. I'd like to know how that's subjective, unless you're just putting the MSNBC spin on this.
 
Redress said:
Oddly, this related to one of my biggest beefs with Obamacare. The proper way to reform anything as big as the US healthcare system is incrementally, small steps, see what happens, fix them, and then more small steps.
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What you state would probably have been the ideal way. But the Democrats have been trying to push a massive health care bill through congress for as long as I remember and I go back to IKE. After 2008 elections, I think the Democrats looked at the results, a Democratic President, a House that was overwhelmingly Democratic and a Senate where they controlled 59 or 60 seats. I think they decided it was now or never as they probably wouldn't have another filibuster proof or near filibuster proof senate any time soon. They rushed and threw Obama-care together to take advantage of what is/was probably their only real chance with a congress so overwhelmingly Democratic.

I really do not know if Obama Care is a good thing or not. I do know I didn't like the way it was passed, Pelosi saying you have to pass the bill first to know what is in it. A senate that used whips, threats and bribes to get members of their own party to go along. It all stunk, what happened to passing a bill because of its merit?
 
Redress said:
Oddly, this related to one of my biggest beefs with Obamacare. The proper way to reform anything as big as the US healthcare system is incrementally, small steps, see what happens, fix them, and then more small steps.
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This. I'd have loved it if we had gotten universal health care in one fell swoop, but demanding that or nothing would have been committing the perfection fallacy.

(It's not called the "perfection" fallacy, I can't remember the name, but you know what I'm referring to so there).
 
You forgot the 5th choice, the one that WILL BE the correct answer.

The Public.

They will blame the citizens of these United States. The cigerette smoking, Big Gulp drinking, trans-fatty acid eating. disgusting, sit on their butt fat-bodies that they are.

Mark my words...
 
ChezC3 said:
You forgot the 5th choice, the one that WILL BE the correct answer.

The Public.

They will blame the citizens of these United States. The cigerette smoking, Big Gulp drinking, trans-fatty acid eating. disgusting, sit on their butt fat-bodies that they are.

Mark my words...
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So we can extend blame to the fast food industry while we're at it. Might as well.
 
Cardinal said:
So we can extend blame to the fast food industry while we're at it. Might as well.
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I've always been one of them fellas who concerns himself with solutions, not blame...
 
cpwill said:
Right, so. Obamacare is now bending the cost-curve up, millions are going to lose their health insurance, the IRS is saying that the cheapest plan under Obamacares' exchanges will cost $20,000 for a family of five by 2016 and increase out of pocket costs even AFTER the subsidies, the hundreds of billions in cuts to Medicare to fund the program will cause many doctors to stop taking Medicare patients, and if we don't make those cuts to providers, then the costs of Obamacare, which are already rising, to explode. 26 States are refusing to work with HHS, and Obamacare's implementation, already well behind track threatens to fall further and further behind even as it is announced that they will not, actually, technically, so-to-speak, be able to help the people the bill was purported to aid.




So. As this disaster of a behemoth of a bill continues to flail and fail, who are the Democrats going to blame? How far down the rabbit hole are they willing to go, ears plugged, eyes closed?
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Well, this is a republican plan and not UHC. But, exactly what is different here than before care? Cost where going up then. People were losing their insurance then. So, how can you support healthcare reform is the cause? And not merely a continuation of the same problem? Assuming of course that your premise is accurate to begin with (my insurance went down slightly).
 
Gipper said:
One of the funniest things is that liberals often bitch about Republicans essentially being for sale by the corporations, but they turn a blinder to what a huge blowjob Obama gave to the insurance lobby over this. Those state health exchanges - do you really think it's going to be a government organization providing that? Nope. Still private coverage. Plus they'll be clustered together by user which is a further attempt to subjugate those on the low end of the spectrum - a real fist job to the slugs. So many people will get the "bronze" package which is essentially comparable to PLPD on your vehicle.

If a Republican did that, he'd be vilified to a level that makes Bush look like Jesus.
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Democrats are for sale for corporations, but Republicans are an arm of corporations.

One of the most fundamental aspects of our political culture.
 
Gipper said:
However, part of me wishes this to get implanted. Most of the people who voted for Obama because of the illusion of UHC are the ones who will get screwed by it the most. Frankly, I will enjoy sitting back and watching rampant stupidity get punished dearly.
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Unfortunately, all of us are going to get screwed over by this stupidity, to a roughly equal degree.

It's too bad we cannot ship Obama and all of his supporters off to another country of their own, and let them all live with the consequences of their stupidity, while those of us who remain behind who have better than room-temperature IQs can vote in a government reflecting this difference.
 
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My personal philosophy is to NEVER make promises I can't keep. I've done myself some serious harm by being a "man of my word". But it is important to me that during my short stay on your planet, that I be a noble being.

I'm not a politician. My promises are based on the resources I control. Politicians are a whole different class of creature, they lie, steal and cheat to popular acclaim. In my 50 years as an adult (I'm 69) I can't remember one President who wasn't accused of misrepresenting and misinforming the public. Not one. Really.

Trillions in debt and bread lines are all very dramatic. I have no purpose to spin anything, as per my disclaimer, I am posting my opinions, nothing more. I'm nobodies puppet (except for the Cats). Your opinions are no more and no less valuable than my own.

Deciding failure in advance is not really valid or useful. The law has been passed, the SCOTUS has upheld it. It is what it is and all the bitching in the world won't affect reality by an iota. By the time the next election occurs, we'll see for real how this worked itself out. Would I have done this differently? Probably, I'm big on simplicity and this plan is stunningly complex. Will it work well enough? I certainly hope so. Why would I wish for failure? This is my country and I want nothing but the best for it.




Dpetty said:
Your confusing satisfaction with success... As the President, or any politician for that matter, you shouldnt make promises you cant keep. Obviously with opposition in the government, not everything will pan out, but COST is a pretty big thing to be wrong about. And that cant be blamed on the opposition, it can be blamed on it being a bad idea. This bill isnt designes to satisfy people, its designed to do something it just cant do, and that is was makes it a failure.
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Gipper said:
Trillions in debt and health care similar to bread lines in the Soviet Union. I'd like to know how that's subjective, unless you're just putting the MSNBC spin on this.
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Perotista said:
Agree.
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States trying to get exemptions would probably be a good bet. If they do not accept what in many ways is regarded as the backbone of the Act, then it could conceivably fall. It would be a good way to frame it, but if that becomes the case, I would question the approach taken to reform if reform becomes unable to succeed via implementation.

That being said, I'm expecting much good to come of the reform at the same time that I expect the other baffling portions to remain in contention for years, decades later.
 
The Bill will not be the savior of either health care or many of those who need care. But, it is a start. I would like to see more work done, and more people coming to the table who actually want to help and not just destroy the effort.
 
Cardinal said:
I'd have loved it if we had gotten universal health care in one fell swoop, but demanding that or nothing would have been committing the perfection fallacy.
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Well, if your final goal is to get the "universal health care" in the sense "all medical goods and services controlled and adminstered by government bureaucracies" - maybe this "reform" could be viewed as the first timid step, although I don't see a clear path forward.

I certainly see how it be could viewed as a "reasonable conpromise" by insurance companies that just got Uncle Sam forcing more people to buy their product.

If, however, your goal is to make actual health care more accessible and more affordable for as many people as possible, I honestly do not see how this thing can be viewed with anything but revulsion.

We must try to do what we can to remove the parasitic intermediaries between the doctor and the patient, to empower the patient economically, no? The Obamacare cements the domination of government and insurance companies (in whatever mutual proportion) over the health market - serving as a guarantee that real costs will rise, actual access will dinimish, and the parasitic intermediaries will keep swelling.
 
Boo Radley said:
The Bill will not be the savior of either health care or many of those who need care. But, it is a start. I would like to see more work done, and more people coming to the table who actually want to help and not just destroy the effort.
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Health care is a commodity, like food, clothing and shelter. People can obtain it through purchase or charity, just like food, clothing and shelter. Anything else is theft.:cool:
 
Cardinal said:
I'm not sure how you think this contradicts anything I said. As I said, any concessions to insurance companies would by definition take us away from uhc. Any elements that remained were further diminished by concessions to Republicans.
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There were no concessions to Republicans - the measure passed without a single Republican vote. This is 100% the result of compromise within the Democrat caucus. It wasn't Republicans that killed the Public Option, it was moderate democrats.
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, this is a republican plan and not UHC.
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No, this is a democrat plan. They wrote it, they hammered it out amongst themselves. No Republican voted for this idiocy. But I guess we can mark you down for Option #1.

But, exactly what is different here than before care?
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our problems rising costs, people unable to afford insurance have accelerated. Obama went around the country claiming that he was going to reduce family's premiums by $2,500, remember? Instead they went up, and they went up relative to the baseline.

Cost where going up then. People were losing their insurance then. So, how can you support healthcare reform is the cause?
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I don't. If you will notice from the link, it's the CBO that says that. Just as it's the IRS that says that thanks to this boondoggle a family is going to face a minimum of a $20,000 expense for health insurance - that's for the bronze plan.
 
Cyrylek said:
Well, if your final goal is to get the "universal health care" in the sense "all medical goods and services controlled and adminstered by government bureaucracies" - maybe this "reform" could be viewed as the first timid step, although I don't see a clear path forward.
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then, with all due respect, you're not cynical enough.

If, however, your goal is to make actual health care more accessible and more affordable for as many people as possible, I honestly do not see how this thing can be viewed with anything but revulsion.
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who said that was the goal? The goal is UHC. And if you are going to get UHC, then what you need is for Americans to reject their health insurance industry. In a body politic where the vast majority of Americans were satisfied with their health insurance, that wasn't going to happen. So, instead, what you need is to figure out a way to ensure that:

real costs will rise, actual access will dinimish, and the parasitic intermediaries will keep swelling.
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hmmmm......... :thinking:
 
cpwill said:
There were no concessions to Republicans - the measure passed without a single Republican vote. This is 100% the result of compromise within the Democrat caucus. It wasn't Republicans that killed the Public Option, it was moderate democrats.
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Some of the concessions were to back away from allowing the government to compete with health insurance providers (that was Charles Grassley's work); allow states to opt out of the program; commit $50 million to fund state initiatives designed to reduce medical malpractice costs; allow undercover investigations of health care providers receiving Medicare, Medicaid and other federal programs; and to boost Medicaid reimbursements to doctors in certain states.
 
Cardinal said:
Some of the concessions were to back away from allowing the government to compete with health insurance providers (that was Charles Grassley's work); allow states to opt out of the program; commit $50 million to fund state initiatives designed to reduce medical malpractice costs; allow undercover investigations of health care providers receiving Medicare, Medicaid and other federal programs; and to boost Medicaid reimbursements to doctors in certain states.
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CP has a point, though. How can you call those concessions to Republicans when the bill went through w/o a single Republican vote for it?
 
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