View Poll Results: Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?

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129. You may not vote on this poll
  • They wil blame Republicans, claiming Obamacare was their idea

    57 44.19%
  • They will blame themselves for not pushing single payer

    29 22.48%
  • They will blame providers and insurers for attempting to survive

    60 46.51%
  • IT WAS THAT VILLIAN, GEORGE BUSH!

    63 48.84%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

  1. #271
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    good grief. Do some info. gathering, will you, please? Don't just SAY stuff you WANT to be the case.
    YOU made the claim. You back it up.

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    YOU made the claim. You back it up.
    Happy to do so. But are you acknowledging that you do NOT do your homework and are unaware of something everyone is aware of? I was simply saying, know what you're talking about before you comment. So, here we go, me doing YOUR homework. And we'll just run with the "your leftist sources" thing afterward, okay?

    U.S. Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund

    Health Costs: How the U.S. Compares With Other Countries | PBS NewsHour

    The 36 Best Healthcare Systems In The World - Business Insider

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...em-best-world/

    WHO | World Health Organization Assesses the World's Health Systems

    TONS of info. out there.

  3. #273
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    You're looking at these things from only one side and ignoring the serious, serious flaws in our current system. Not good thinking OR debating.
    No I'm looking at the only example we currently have of any sort of mandated health insurance we have in this country and what Obamacare is modeled on.
    There are problems with it that need to be addressed. It's not like it has been a well functioning program for decades that just needs a tweak here or there.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

  4. #274
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    Happy to do so. But are you acknowledging that you do NOT do your homework and are unaware of something everyone is aware of?
    I am aware that by the metric you identified - [i]health care - the United States is in fact doing quite well.

    Yeah, and I've seen this before. Here's the problem with WHO, is that it isn't measuring health care. It measures a whole slew of things - for example, "equitability". So, if Country A and Country B both had a populace that suffered from some form of cancer, and then Country A found a way to cure half of those who came down with it, then according to the WHO Country A would have worse healthcare than Country B, simply because all of Country B's citizens are suffering equally, whereas half of Country A's get cured.

    When you start looking at actual health care, you will notice, the story changes dramatically.

    Americans have better survival rates than Europeans or Canadians for common cancers, they have better access to treatment for chronic disease, they have better access to preventative screening, they spend less time waiting for access to healthcare, they have access to higher quality healthcare, and they are therefore reasonably more satisfied with their healthcare.

    So yeah. If you want to measure by "who does a better job of rationing", then that would be one of the single-payer nations. If you want to measure by "who has better health care", however, that would be the U.S.

  5. #275
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So yeah. If you want to measure by "who does a better job of rationing", then that would be one of the single-payer nations. If you want to measure by "who has better health care", however, that would be the U.S.
    You could also ask the preemies.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I am aware that by the metric you identified - [i]health care - the United States is in fact doing quite well.



    Yeah, and I've seen this before. Here's the problem with WHO, is that it isn't measuring health care. It measures a whole slew of things - for example, "equitability". So, if Country A and Country B both had a populace that suffered from some form of cancer, and then Country A found a way to cure half of those who came down with it, then according to the WHO Country A would have worse healthcare than Country B, simply because all of Country B's citizens are suffering equally, whereas half of Country A's get cured.

    When you start looking at actual health care, you will notice, the story changes dramatically.

    Americans have better survival rates than Europeans or Canadians for common cancers, they have better access to treatment for chronic disease, they have better access to preventative screening, they spend less time waiting for access to healthcare, they have access to higher quality healthcare, and they are therefore reasonably more satisfied with their healthcare.

    So yeah. If you want to measure by "who does a better job of rationing", then that would be one of the single-payer nations. If you want to measure by "who has better health care", however, that would be the U.S.
    Well SURE, if you count very a narrow metrics that don't affect MOST people, then yeah, anything is fab-yoo! for instance, let's just ignore the number of people in foreclosure or behind in their mortgage payments and sinking under water (that's a metaphor, btw), AND let's ignore the renters. Guess what? Homeownership in the US is Numero Uno!!!!

    Okay, let's ignore, say, the side effects of chemotherapy on cancer patients. Wow! Look! Chemotherapy is like taking a Tums!

    Now, let's ignore the COST of a college education and whether it is within reach for most Americans. By golly, look! Getting a college education in the US is SOOOOO easy!

    Hey, this is awesome. Just IGNORE the downsides of things and the world is one's oyster! Why didn't I think of that?!

  7. #277
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    Well SURE, if you count very a narrow metrics that don't affect MOST people, then yeah, anything is fab-yoo! for instance, let's just ignore the number of people in foreclosure or behind in their mortgage payments and sinking under water (that's a metaphor, btw), AND let's ignore the renters. Guess what? Homeownership in the US is Numero Uno!!!!

    Okay, let's ignore, say, the side effects of chemotherapy on cancer patients. Wow! Look! Chemotherapy is like taking a Tums!

    Now, let's ignore the COST of a college education and whether it is within reach for most Americans. By golly, look! Getting a college education in the US is SOOOOO easy!

    Hey, this is awesome. Just IGNORE the downsides of things and the world is one's oyster! Why didn't I think of that?!
    The problem of misleading medical/health data is quite real.

    http://www.juniordoctorjournal.com/...global-health/trouble-health-indicat.

    http://www.juniordoctorjournal.com/....health-indicat...

    Apologies. The link won't post.
    Last edited by Jack Hays; 02-20-13 at 12:01 PM.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  8. #278
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Paying for your own health care? That's just crazy talk.
    Perhaps you misunderstood - in Canada, we pay for healthcare "insurance" through our taxes, and in Provinces like Ontario where I live, we also pay a premium on top of that based on our level of income. Not included in that "payment" for healthcare are all the services not listed or that have been delisted over the past decade or so because the system is becoming too expensive. In my particular case, even though I'm retired, I pay in three different ways for healthcare.

    So to those in America who like to claim that Canada has "free" healthcare, I simply say nothing is free - it's a matter of choices made.

  9. #279
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is precisely what I said. See where I say:



    ?





    Regardless, nowhere that I can see does it say that of the previously much-ballyhoo'd "40 million uninsured", that 27 million of those previously uninsured will be added to the insurance rolls, as you claimed.
    No, you are still reading it wrong, that is change in the number of uninsured. There will be 27 million fewer uninsured. Since that is precisely the goal of ACA, I wonder how you call it a failure.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  10. #280
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, you are still reading it wrong, that is change in the number of uninsured. There will be 27 million fewer uninsured. Since that is precisely the goal of ACA, I wonder how you call it a failure.
    The goal was to insure 27 million but leave 10-20 million uninsured? I don't recall reading that when the law was being 'debated'.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

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