View Poll Results: Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?

Voters
129. You may not vote on this poll
  • They wil blame Republicans, claiming Obamacare was their idea

    57 44.19%
  • They will blame themselves for not pushing single payer

    29 22.48%
  • They will blame providers and insurers for attempting to survive

    60 46.51%
  • IT WAS THAT VILLIAN, GEORGE BUSH!

    63 48.84%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

  1. #261
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Why didn't you just google "republican healthcare plan 1993"?
    Well it looks like somebody at least read it before not debating on it!

    Just because it was a Republican plan doesn't mean it was a good plan. It does address lawsuits more than the current mess but we didn't need a complete takeover of health insurance to accomplish that.
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Our health care system isn't failed, our health care system does pretty doggone well. That's why we have a higher satisfaction rating than, for example, Canada. We just have a stupid way of paying for our healthcare, which has led to price explosion and needless administrative complexity.

    True, IF you live in a vacuum and simply ignore the 46 million uninsured and the consequences of that, those who lose their homes, education for their kids, retirement, etc., due to health care costs...but yes, if you just SAY something you WANT to be the case, then it does seem like one has a great argument.

    However, the US is actually way behind even those - ewwwwwwwww - SOCIALIST countries in health care.

    THEN, conversely, if you just DECLARE a system that hasn't even been fully implemented OR had time to be tested a failure, again, just creating the reality you WANT for argument purposes, then sure, it FEELS like it is what you say it is.

    Problem is, it isn't.

    It really is time for Republicans to end the "we create reality now, and it's always just a coincidence that our created reality suits our POLITICS, namely our war against Democrats" era, don't you think?

    Oh, and FYI: Massachusetts is still standing and doing okay, despite both Romneycare AND gay marriage! Imagine that!

  3. #263
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Funny, because if you read the actual report what it says is that 26 million people will be on the exchanges, not that 26 million previously uninsured people will .




    The number of people expected to be uninsured under Obama- Care continues to climb, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office. In March, the CBO estimated that 27 million people would still be uninsured in 2022. It now finds that 30 million will be uninsured 10 years from now.

    Worth noting is that that was the August 2012 report. The one from 2013 now says once again that 27 million people will still be uninsured. So I suppose that I have indeed been eclipsed by the changing estimate - all that incredible spending in Obamacare isn't going to increase the number of insured by 10 million, but by 13 million. Out of the 40 million that it was billed as helping.

    So, once again, you have apparently misread the report - it doesn't add 27 million to the insurance rolls, it still has 27 million off the insurance rolls.
    You are reading the wrong line. -30 uninsured was the old projection, -27 million is the new projection.
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  4. #264
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Just a couple things cpwill since I am time limited right now. that -4 million is change in projection. 27 million more insured is the actual number by 2022.

    Here is the chart with the actual projections for number of insured through employer: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...ageEffects.pdf

    Note that it clearly shows number of insured through the employer going from 154 to 167 million by 2023.
    That's the estimates for prior law coverage, Redress. As in "if we hadn't passed the ACA, this is what we estimate would have happened".

    Note at the bottom of the page: Figures reflect average annual enrollment; individuals reporting multiple sources of coverage are assigned a primary source. To illustrate the effects of the Affordable Care Act, which is now current law, changes in coverage are shown compared with coverage projections in the absence of that legislation, or "prior law."


    If you look at the columns below that where it says "change", you will note that the figures for Employer Based Coverage under the ACA read:

    Employer: 1 * -2 -6 -7 -8 -8 -8 -7 -7 -7

    The note associated with those numbers reads:

    The change in employment-based coverage is the net result of increases in and losses of offers of health insurance from employers and changes in enrollment by workers and their families. For example, in 2019, an estimated 12 million people who would have had an offer of employment-based coverage under prior law will lose their offer under current law, and another 3 million people will have an offer of employment-based coverage but will enroll in health insurance from another source instead. These flows out of employment-based coverage will be partially offset by an estimated 7 million people who will newly enroll in employment-based coverage under the Affordable Care Act.

    Again. If you are going to accuse others of misrepresentation, it may help to actually read those sources before you attempt to correct others on them.

  5. #265
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You are reading the wrong line. -30 uninsured was the old projection, -27 million is the new projection.
    That is precisely what I said. See where I say:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Worth noting is that that was the August 2012 report. The one from 2013 now says once again that 27 million people will still be uninsured.
    ?





    Regardless, nowhere that I can see does it say that of the previously much-ballyhoo'd "40 million uninsured", that 27 million of those previously uninsured will be added to the insurance rolls, as you claimed.

  6. #266
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    Oh, and FYI: Massachusetts is still standing and doing okay, despite both Romneycare AND gay marriage! Imagine that!
    Doing OK depends ...


    "As a result of Chapter 58 of the Acts of 2006, Massachusetts has expanded coverage to 98% of its population through the shared responsibility of individuals and employers. It is essential that businesses and consumers be engaged in efforts to promote a value-based health care market. Providers cannot coordinate care without the alignment of varying interests of consumers, purchasing employers, and health insurers. We should not expect to fix the system by shifting the risk and responsibility for efficient care management from health insurers to providers through Accountable Care Organizations (―ACOs‖). A shift of payment methodology by itself is not the panacea to controlling costs. Moreover, the information we reviewed shows that the shift to global payments without other fundamental changes may not only fail to control cost, but may exacerbate market dysfunction and market inequities by establishing widely different per member per month rates based on historic pricing disparities.
    The improvement of our health care system requires fundamental changes in how we purchase and pay for health care. Massachusetts is a national leader in health care. We face a unique opportunity and a shared responsibility to build upon the existing strengths in our health care system. The need for system reform and improvement has been recognized by Governor Patrick, legislative leaders, consumer groups, insurers, hospitals, health care providers, employers, and leading business associations. This effort will require the active participation of all these parties."

    http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/healthc...hcctd-full.pdf
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
    P. J. O'Rourke

  7. #267
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Should note - this poll is prefaced upon the assumption that at some point the ability to deny what is happening will break, and they will have to blame somebody.
    Well shoot, that's just political standard operating procedure.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  8. #268
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    True, IF you live in a vacuum and simply ignore the 46 million uninsured and the consequences of that, those who lose their homes, education for their kids, retirement, etc., due to health care costs...but yes, if you just SAY something you WANT to be the case, then it does seem like one has a great argument.
    And who are the uninsured?

    ...For the record, according to the latest figures from the Census Bureau, 45.6 million Americans currently lack health insurance. This is actually down slightly from the 47 million that were uninsured in 2006. However, those numbers don’t tell the whole story.

    For example, roughly one quarter of those counted as uninsured — 12 million people — are eligible for Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), but haven’t enrolled. This includes 64 percent of all uninsured children, and 29 percent of parents with children. Since these people would be enrolled in those programs automatically if they went to the hospital for care, calling them uninsured is really a smokescreen.

    Another 10 million uninsured “Americans” are, at least technically, not Americans. Approximately 5.6 million are illegal immigrants, and another 4.4 million are legal immigrants but not citizens.

    Nor are the uninsured necessarily poor. A new study by June O’Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that 43 percent of the uninsured have incomes higher than 250 percent of the poverty level ($55,125 for a family of four). And slightly more than a third have incomes in excess of $66,000. A second study, by Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania and Kate Bundorf of Stanford, concluded that nearly three-quarters of the uninsured could afford coverage but chose not to purchase it.

    And most of the uninsured are young and in good health. According to the CBO, roughly 60 percent are under the age of 35, and fully 86 percent report that they are in good or excellent health....
    However, the US is actually way behind even those - ewwwwwwwww - SOCIALIST countries in health care.
    based on what? certainly not actual provision of - you know - health care. because when it comes to that we beat them hands down. what we don't do as thorough a job as they do of is rationing; which I will admit, socialist nations are generally more prone to become experts at.

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heebie Jeebie View Post
    Doing OK depends ...


    "As a result of Chapter 58 of the Acts of 2006, Massachusetts has expanded coverage to 98% of its population through the shared responsibility of individuals and employers. It is essential that businesses and consumers be engaged in efforts to promote a value-based health care market. Providers cannot coordinate care without the alignment of varying interests of consumers, purchasing employers, and health insurers. We should not expect to fix the system by shifting the risk and responsibility for efficient care management from health insurers to providers through Accountable Care Organizations (―ACOs‖). A shift of payment methodology by itself is not the panacea to controlling costs. Moreover, the information we reviewed shows that the shift to global payments without other fundamental changes may not only fail to control cost, but may exacerbate market dysfunction and market inequities by establishing widely different per member per month rates based on historic pricing disparities.
    The improvement of our health care system requires fundamental changes in how we purchase and pay for health care. Massachusetts is a national leader in health care. We face a unique opportunity and a shared responsibility to build upon the existing strengths in our health care system. The need for system reform and improvement has been recognized by Governor Patrick, legislative leaders, consumer groups, insurers, hospitals, health care providers, employers, and leading business associations. This effort will require the active participation of all these parties."

    http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/healthc...hcctd-full.pdf

    And? Your point? Where did I say Romneycare was perfect or a panacea? I said Mass. is still standing.

    Btw, I've criticized RomneyObamacare all along as not doing the most important thing, controlling health care costs. But it DOES solve other problems.

    You're looking at these things from only one side and ignoring the serious, serious flaws in our current system. Not good thinking OR debating.

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post





    based on what? .

    good grief. Do some info. gathering, will you, please? Don't just SAY stuff you WANT to be the case.

    Cripes.

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