View Poll Results: Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?

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129. You may not vote on this poll
  • They wil blame Republicans, claiming Obamacare was their idea

    57 44.19%
  • They will blame themselves for not pushing single payer

    29 22.48%
  • They will blame providers and insurers for attempting to survive

    60 46.51%
  • IT WAS THAT VILLIAN, GEORGE BUSH!

    63 48.84%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

  1. #251
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danbury View Post
    Are you unaware of how failed our health care system is, or are you just opting to ignore that in order to declare a system not even in place a failure?
    Our health care system isn't failed, our health care system does pretty doggone well. That's why we have a higher satisfaction rating than, for example, Canada. We just have a stupid way of paying for our healthcare, which has led to price explosion and needless administrative complexity.

  2. #252
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Do you actually know what all that means? These folks who will no longer have employer based insurance CAN have the government plan.
    No, there is no government plan, remember? The Public Option got squashed. What they can do is take a government subsidy if they qualify. And so the point - that the President's claim that "if you like your insurance you can keep it" was false - remains.

    So they will not lose insurance...
    Objectively they will. You are simply claiming that they may replace it. If I steal your car and you go out and buy another, you have still lost a car.

    they can CHOOSE to switch or they too can CHOOSE to pay penalties. You need to look beyond just the black and white of the matter. Your quote did not accurately represent what will occur.
    No, you want to tack on something to the point. Which is well and good - it's a worthy point. For those making less than 400% of the poverty line, Obamacare offers a subsidy for those who lose their insurance to help them purchase insurance through the exchanges. The problem being that (and this is why I brought it up) the bronze plan for those exchanges for a family of 5 (a family my size) is going to be $20,000 in 2016. According to that famously rabid right wing blog, the Internal Revenue Service.

  3. #253
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ....you realize that you making an ad sourcinem and a just-so statement in tandem does not, actually, constitute "being shown"?
    I linked and quoted the CBO releases, in this very thread. You know, the CBO reports you had to have others tell you about. I read them myself. I like raw data and thinking for myself. By the way, one of the primary goals of ACA was to increase the number of insured, which that same CBO report shows is exactly what is going to happen, which is again shown in this very thread. So apparently your definition of failure is to do as it is intended.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  4. #254
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I linked and quoted the CBO releases, in this very thread. You know, the CBO reports you had to have others tell you about. I read them myself. I like raw data and thinking for myself. By the way, one of the primary goals of ACA was to increase the number of insured, which that same CBO report shows is exactly what is going to happen, which is again shown in this very thread. So apparently your definition of failure is to do as it is intended.

    That is correct - the net number of insured will go up, according to the CBO (I think they depend too much on people not seeking free rider status, but that's a different debate).

    Unfortunately the ACA was sold as a way to get insurance to the "40 million uninsured", and it turns out that we are going to spend a trillion plus and only get insurance to about 10 million of those.

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    let's quote the actual article and see:



    See the whole "pushed out of their job based insurance coverage" bit? It doesn't say that 7 million people will choose to pay the penalties, it says that their employers will choose to pay the penalties. Look, it's in the second paragraph:



    You will notice that the "they" is the businesses, not the individuals.


    Funny you should say so - it seems that you are the one who has inaccurately described the article. Now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - I don't think you did it because you are inherently untruthful. I think you just skimmed the article and took away a false impression. But perhaps you should make sure before you accuse others of duplicity, eh?
    You do realize that the CBO stated that those covered by employer insurance will go up every year, right? Do you know why the CBO increased the estimate of those who would be dropped by employers? Here, let me quote the CBO report:

    Lower marginal tax rates under the American Taxpayer Relief Act reduce the tax benefit associated with employment-based health insurance and will lead to a greater reduction in such coverage and higher enrollment in insurance exchanges than previously estimated by CBO and JCT.
    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...getOutlook.pdf

    Yup, that's right, lower taxes caused it.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct - the net number of insured will go up, according to the CBO (I think they depend too much on people not seeking free rider status, but that's a different debate).

    Unfortunately the ACA was sold as a way to get insurance to the "40 million uninsured", and it turns out that we are going to spend a trillion plus and only get insurance to about 10 million of those.
    27 million actually. Read the actual report, don't let others tell you what it says: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...getOutlook.pdf
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  7. #257
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is skewing reality, and seeing how some on your side have enjoyed lambasting people for obvious skews through omission, I figured I'd join in.

    You state the "ideas" of the Bill were republican in origin, obviously trying to suggest multiple and giving no atempt what so ever to specific which but to simply state it broadly and to give no input as to the context of those ideas. To borrow a phrase from another poster here...this is like a child eating just his dessert and saying that he ate what was given to him. In terms of the ACA and the former republican "ideas":


    At best you can say SOME of hte ideas were "republican" in origin, and even that is just picking at dessert while ignoring the main course.
    Why didn't you just google "republican healthcare plan 1993"?


    "In November, 1993, Sen. John Chafee, R-R.I., introduced what was considered to be one of the main Republican health overhaul proposals: "A bill to provide comprehensive reform of the health care system of the United States."

    Titled the "Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993," it had 21 co-sponsors, including two Democrats (Sens. Boren and Kerrey). The bill, which was not debated or voted upon, was an alternative to President Bill Clinton's plan. It bears similarity to the Democratic bill passed by the Senate Dec. 24, 2009, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

    Here is a summary of the 1993 bill:

    Summary Of A 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan - Kaiser Health News

    ^^^ Almost half of the Republican Senate endorsed it.


    "The concept that people should be required to buy health coverage was fleshed out more than two decades ago by a number of conservative economists, embraced by scholars at conservative research groups, including the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute, and championed, for a time, by Republicans in the Senate...."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/he...ives.html?_r=0

    "Romney’s signature legislative achievement served as the model for Obamacare. But as Romney said in a debate in Las Vegas last October, “we got the idea of an individual mandate…from [Newt Gingrich], and [Newt] got it from the Heritage Foundation.” "......
    The Tortuous History of Conservatives and the Individual Mandate - Forbes

  8. #258
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You do realize that the CBO stated that those covered by employer insurance will go up every year, right? Do you know why the CBO increased the estimate of those who would be dropped by employers? Here, let me quote the CBO report:
    Lower marginal tax rates under the American Taxpayer Relief Act reduce the tax benefit associated with employment-based health insurance and will lead to a greater reduction in such coverage and higher enrollment in insurance exchanges than previously estimated by CBO and JCT.
    I love that you quote this. Describe for us what you think is meant by the words "a greater reduction in such coverage".


    Let's quote at length here to see where the disparity lies:

    ...For the 2013–2022 period, technical changes to estimates for the Medicaid program have reduced projections for spending by $236 billion (or 5.5 percent) relative to CBO’s estimates in August 2012. (Changes to estimates of Medicaid outlays related to legislation or economic factors amounted only to $3 billion.) The revisions reflect both lower anticipated enrollment in Medicaid and lower expected costs per person. CBO now estimates that enrollment in 2022, for example, will be about 84 million, compared with the 85 million it projected last August. Although CBO projects that more people will enroll in Medicaid for the first time because of the Affordable Care Act’s expansion of the program, the agency’s projection of the number of people who would have been covered by Medicaid in the absence of that act has declined by a greater amount. Lower estimated Medicaid enrollment among those other groups is, in part, the result of improvements in CBO’s methods for forecasting the number of people with insurance. More people are now expected to have insurance through other sources (primarily employers), resulting in lower projected enrollment in Medicaid....
    You will note that the "more people will have insurance through other sources (primarily employers)" was not based off of current numbers but rather off of the baseline of assumed losses that includes employers but does not state that the growth from that baseline comes from them. You will note if you skip to page 60 that the raw amount of employer-penalty increases from the 2012 to the 2013 estimates while the individual penalty amounts goes down, indicating that more employers are pushing people off their insurance rolls than previously estimated, and more individuals are purchasing on the exchanges than previously estimated.

    Oh, and look, the chart even has those handy little explanations at the bottom:

    The change in employment-based coverage is the net result of projected increases in and losses of offers of health insurance from employers and projected changes in enrollment by workers and their families
    That net change between 2012 and 2013? -4 Million people; with a total of 7 million people now projected to lose offers of health insurance from employers.


    Oh look, if we skip from there on to page 64 we run into the most interesting paragraph.

    Fewer People with Employment-Based Coverage
    In 2022, by CBO and JCT’s estimate, 7 million fewer people will have employment-based health insurance as a result of the Affordable Care Act; in August, that figure was estimated to be about 4 million people. The revision is the net effect of several considerations, with the largest factor being the reduction in marginal tax rates, which reduces the tax benefits associated with health insurance provided by employers. The increased movement out of employment-based coverage also reflects revisions to CBO’s projections of income over time and higher projections of employment-based coverage in the absence of the Affordable Care Act. Reductions in employment-based health insurance coverage boost federal tax revenues because they increase the proportion of compensation received by workers that is taxable. (That effect is included in Table A-2 in the line labeled “Other Effects on Tax Revenues and Outlays.”) Although a greater reduction in the number of people with employment-based coverage is expected, the projected increase in revenues from changes in the taxability of compensation is now $53 billion less for the 2013–2022 period than was projected in August because of the lower tax rates enacted in the American Taxpayer Relief Act and because of other technical changes.
    Gosh, that doesn't sound at all like

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress
    You do realize that the CBO stated that those covered by employer insurance will go up every year, right?
    In fact, it sort of sounds like the exact opposite of that...


    I dunno. Maybe you should read your own sources before you decide to throw around comments like

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress
    I read them myself. I like raw data and thinking for myself.
    ....because now it sort of looks like either you lied, or you lack reading comprehension.


    I'm thinking it's neither - that in fact you scanned until a sentence that you thought would prove your point caught your eye, marched in here sure that because cpwill cited a conservative source it must have been twisting the truth, and are now caught.

  9. #259
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It is clear that Obamacare, in its current form, will fail. The question is how long will it take for America and its government to move to a single payer system in order to save the nation's citizens from Obamacare. When the single payer system is instituted, Obamacare will be seen as the vehicle that got you there by forcing your hand. As such, Obama will be seen as the father of the single payer system.

    There is a lot wrong with both the delivery of health care and its costs in Canada under our universal, single payer healthcare system, including the fact that much of healthcare now requires the individual to pay, but Tommy Douglas, who was instrumental in its inception in the early 1960's, is still deified here as the father of medicare.
    Paying for your own health care? That's just crazy talk.

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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Just a couple things cpwill since I am time limited right now. that -4 million is change in projection. 27 million more insured is the actual number by 2022.

    Here is the chart with the actual projections for number of insured through employer: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...ageEffects.pdf

    Note that it clearly shows number of insured through the employer going from 154 to 167 million by 2023.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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