View Poll Results: Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?

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129. You may not vote on this poll
  • They wil blame Republicans, claiming Obamacare was their idea

    57 44.19%
  • They will blame themselves for not pushing single payer

    29 22.48%
  • They will blame providers and insurers for attempting to survive

    60 46.51%
  • IT WAS THAT VILLIAN, GEORGE BUSH!

    63 48.84%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

  1. #231
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This is where I stopped wondering if I needed to take this reply seriously. The Public Option was killed by Democrat Joe Lieberman.



    all this? is crap. These things indeed did exist in the bill - they were buy-offs to democrat senators to get them to vote for this hunk of junk. The Louisiana Purchase and the Cornhusker Kickback weren't to Republicans. They were to Democrats. Not a single Republican got concessions because not a single Republican voted for this disaster of a piece of legislation.
    Not voting for the bill has no bearing on whether past behavior occurred. I'm not sure who you think your logic is geared towards, but it's a child-like thinking that I ain't swallowing.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 02-19-13 at 12:26 PM.

  2. #232
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not the issue. The ideas, not the vote, were republican in origin. Sorry.
    This is skewing reality, and seeing how some on your side have enjoyed lambasting people for obvious skews through omission, I figured I'd join in.

    You state the "ideas" of the Bill were republican in origin, obviously trying to suggest multiple and giving no atempt what so ever to specific which but to simply state it broadly and to give no input as to the context of those ideas. To borrow a phrase from another poster here...this is like a child eating just his dessert and saying that he ate what was given to him. In terms of the ACA and the former republican "ideas":

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I have yet to have a single, solitary person on this forum provide any actual evidence of the actual proposal that was given in 1993. I've seen bloggers speaking about it, typically referencing other bloggers. I've seen a 3rd party comparison chart that is exceedingly lacking in specifics and depth. However I've seen absolutely zero hard evidence of a plan to be able to look at it independently and actually compare, despite some people on this site claiming they're nearly "identical" yet never having seen it themselves.

    In 1993 the Republicans were a minority group, likely suggesting a plan that would look bipartisan and compromising in nature rather than one that was the idea thing they'd want. However there has been no indication anywhere that I've seen of the penalties or enforcement that was in the 1993 plan, which alone could paint a very different picture.

    As I've said before, one could say someone should like Golf if they like Football because that shows they like games with a ball in it. One could also say that would be an incredibly ignorant comment to make.

    Without actual evidence and ability to look at the plan, to see the reasonings surrounding it almost 20 years ago, and the difference between now and then, its hard to really make such a claim. Unless you're one of the typically dishonest hyper partisan types, implying that its automatically hypocritical or partisan to say that almost 20 years ago people in a party supported a plan that had this one particular thing in it, the extent of which is completely unknown, but to be against this current plan, is ridiculous
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    While the mandating of insurance is similar, there are a number of difference between the two bills that is at the core a likely reason its okay then and not now. For example, one of the key ones it seems is the ability to purchase between state lines. This opens up competition in the market place making insurance more varied, more affordable, and gives more choices to those having to buy it. From what I've seen the penalties for buying your own insurance, and buying very good insurance for yourself, were not present in the older bill which again makes the choice more difficult.

    The plan from 1993 also had a number of things, such a reform of malpractice law, that have been denied going into this.

    It also doesn't seem to have a number of things, such as the direct access to our bank accounts, a government panel making decisions regarding what treatment you can have (without the appeals process found in private insurance), subsidizing union contracts, and other such things that add to this.

    As I've stated, I very much dislike the notion of mandated insurance. I think its a constitutionally problematic thing that I believe violates the spirit more so than the letter of it. That said, as part of a compromised bill which stressed consumer responsibility and choice of private insurance with the government simply, at most, as a safety net...without a number of penalties and regulations that seem to have no real purpose other than to set the stage for continual legislation pushes towards more people choosing or needing the government plan and thus moving to single payer...could be a compromised type bill I could get behind if done honestly and above the board while in the minority...as the republicans were in 1993.

    That is not the case, in any way here. Many of the core conservative ideas for fixing things have been utterly rejected. The only real compromise that's been presented is "We'll make it LESS liberal" in most cases. The various regulations, penalties, and fines on individuals, business, and the insurance companies appears to be a clear attempt to make it either difficult or inefficient to get the insurance you want, you want to provide as a business owner, or you need to provide to get a profit as an insurance provider. This, coupled with the mandate for individual insurance, I believe is going to simply set the stage for more problems, not less, to simply give a way to say "See, we should've done single payer in the first place, lets do it now".

    I don't see those same things in the 1993 plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, there was no real official "republican" health care bill. There was one penned by oft criticized former Republican Lincoln Chafee that did get a significant amount of support for a short time as a possible "compromise" bill, one such compromise being the individual mandate. However within a few months the mandate, and the bill, was roundly criticized and rejected by a majority of Republicans including those previously supporting it, the AMA, and the CBO. You also had the Cooper-Grady health care proposal out there as a possible Republican backed proposal along with the Rowland/Bilirakis one and not that long after the Packwood-Dole which was just as largely supported by Republicans as the Chafee plan and it rejected the idea of an individual mandate. So stating it was some kind of "Official" uniformed Republican preference is an absolute absurdity and highlights the hypocrisy of you complaining about others being honest when you spew such rhetoric yourself. Taking ONE republican backed plan during a time when they were completely out of control of the government and had to put forth compromised bills that gave ground to the other side in hopes of having any shot of legitimately potentially getting something passed as the "OFFICIAL" stance of "REPUBLIACNS" while ignoring other competing bills and wide scale rejection of said bill within a few months time is ridiculously disingenuous. At best you could say it was the stance of a majority of Senate Republicans, and that's about as far as you can get.

    Secondly, attempting to attribute individuals within a parties ideas as some sort of party wide stance is ridiculous. Shall I find a singular Democrat suggesting pro-life and suggest then that pro-life is the Democratic Parties stance? Shall I find a singular bill penned by a Democrat pushing for the banning of all handguns as proof that it is the Democratic Parties idea of gun control? Shall we ignore that one of Romeny's largest problems during the primary was his actions surrounding health care in Massachusetts and he's rounded stated that such a thing was the right choice based on his constituents desires at a state level but not something he'd suggest for the federal? Your logic has so many holes in it and your hypocrisy is so transparent that your post might as well best be described as a pane of glass mimicing swiss cheese.

    Thirdly, the idea of an individual mandate as the only method of allowing the government for force insurance companies to stop denying coverage based on pre-existing conditions is a legitimate one. It also just happens to be an unconstitutional one. Thus the problem. Its the only thing that even gets close to making the notion the Democrats are pushing "doable", and even that is a stretch, and yet to do so would be to act in a way that is unconstitutional...which is what makes the entire thing problematic to begin with and something the government shouldn't be doing due to the damage it will cause.

    I don't deny that at some point some republicans had the ideas about the individual mandate. However the constistant labeling it as a "Republican Idea" as if that gives it credance, makes it some "official stance", or suggest that conservatives by and large are automatically hypocritical for disagreeing with it as if its some kind of unconditional truth of conservatism...as your use of the "republican idea" meme continually implies and suggests...is as dishonest as going through threads repeatedly suggesting that Democrats support banning all guns.
    At best you can say SOME of hte ideas were "republican" in origin, and even that is just picking at dessert while ignoring the main course.

  3. #233
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    I don't support Obamacare.

    I feel lonely...
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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  4. #234
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is skewing reality, and seeing how some on your side have enjoyed lambasting people for obvious skews through omission, I figured I'd join in.

    You state the "ideas" of the Bill were republican in origin, obviously trying to suggest multiple and giving no atempt what so ever to specific which but to simply state it broadly and to give no input as to the context of those ideas. To borrow a phrase from another poster here...this is like a child eating just his dessert and saying that he ate what was given to him. In terms of the ACA and the former republican "ideas":







    At best you can say SOME of hte ideas were "republican" in origin, and even that is just picking at dessert while ignoring the main course.
    A good number of the major ideas were. Yes, republican in origin. I didn't think CP need specification. if he did, and told me, I'd have been then willing to specify.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #235
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    I don't support Obamacare.

    I feel lonely...
    Don't worry, it wants to get really close with you. You won't be lonely for long!
    There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.
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  6. #236
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    There is no way for it to do otherwise.
    That's nothing but your unsubstantiated opinion. Unless you have gone into the future and seen for certain, it is an ASSUMPTION.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #237
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    Re: A Sucker Born Every Minute…

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Quod erat demonstrandum.

    I think most Americans understood from the beginning that there was no way that this massive scam could possibly succeed at achieving any of what it was claimed to be intended to achieve. As the inevitability of failure becomes increasingly obvious, there are still quite a few suckers who deny the obvious, and I think that this will remain true, no matter how massive and how obvious this failure becomes.

    The famous statement popularly, but incorrectly attributed to P. T. Barnum is, in fact, a massive understatement.
    Again, YOUR unsubstantiated opinion... which is quite worthless when attempting to present facts about future failure or success.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #238
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sort of. Prefaced upon the description of how it is currently failing.
    Then perhaps you should have reworded your poll to reflect accuracy.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #239
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Then perhaps you should have reworded your poll to reflect accuracy.

    I'd argue that we haven't gotten past the "denial" phase of mourning yet, but sure.

  10. #240
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    Re: Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    .... the CBO is deceptive because they don't tell you what you want to hear. Classic ad sourcinem by Redress.

    Here's a deception for you: "If you like your insurance, you can keep it." That was deceptive as the man knew that it was crap when he said it. I would believe he has been honestly surprised by the fact that he's bent the cost-curve up, though. Give the man honest credit for his beliefs.



    Gonna be fun watching ya'll deal with this slow self-dismemberment. Little bit of schadenfreude in all of us.
    Btw, cp... I read the links in the OP. There was so much you misrepresented, I didn't even bother posting... mostly because you're not going to listen anyway and because your OP is a false premise, anyhow, making your entire point irrelevant.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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