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  • Yes, this administration IS the most transparent in American history

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Thread: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?[W: 104]

  1. #51
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    What exactly is it that you feel this administration has been concealing? And how could any of it rank alongside intentionally misleading the country into a war?
    Isn't it a rather large assumption to say the Bush administration intentionally mislead the public, as opposed to a bunch of extremely hawkish individuals misinterpreting intelligence?

    Also, I'm sure we can put a rather exhaustive list together concerning the lack of transparency from this administration, as we can with any recent example, so your demand seems rather fan-boyish and absurd. But to cite one particularly glaring example, you can look to their ongoing drone program, operations involving the targeting of US citizens within it, and their metrics for determining who those are.

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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    But to cite one particularly glaring example, you can look to their ongoing drone program, operations involving the targeting of US citizens within it, and their metrics for determining who those are.
    See, and I'm wondering what part of that you didn't know about at the time. We've known about drone attacks for years, and even if the administration did not specifically say that it was targeting US citizens who were allegedly allied with terrorists, the moment it actually happened, everyone knew about it. I'm honestly unsure about what sort of transparency you were expecting here. Do you want the government to be posting its criteria to determine what terrorist training camps it will attack? Or a full dossier on its terrorist suspects?

    You know, after contemplating this for a bit, I'm starting to think that "transparency" is just a buzzword. I really don't know what we expect our administrations to tell us, at least in terms of executive action. More transparency from the legislature I understand. Most congressional bills are written in dense legalese and often make tiny alterations to other laws. Discovering the effects of a single day's worth of Congressional acts can take weeks. In terms of the executive, I would want to know who the president and his staff are talking to, and the content of what they're saying. I'd want to know what promises he's making and to whom he's making them. And in that regard, Bush was substantially worse than Obama has been. But if we're discussing it, the policy of killing US citizens abroad with drones (or really by any means) is 100% wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Isn't it a rather large assumption to say the Bush administration intentionally mislead the public, as opposed to a bunch of extremely hawkish individuals misinterpreting intelligence?
    No, it's not. Richard Clarke, the man in charge of anti terrorist operations in 2001, has gone on record that on the day of 9/11, Bush personally ordered that a link between Iraq and the Twin Tower attacks be found. Not that Clarke discover the culprits, but that he find a way to pin it on Saddam.
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    What exactly is it that you feel this administration has been concealing? And how could any of it rank alongside intentionally misleading the country into a war?
    And which administration would you claim intentionally misled the country into a war?
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    See, and I'm wondering what part of that you didn't know about at the time. We've known about drone attacks for years, and even if the administration did not specifically say that it was targeting US citizens who were allegedly allied with terrorists, the moment it actually happened, everyone knew about it. I'm honestly unsure about what sort of transparency you were expecting here. Do you want the government to be posting its criteria to determine what terrorist training camps it will attack? Or a full dossier on its terrorist suspects?

    You know, after contemplating this for a bit, I'm starting to think that "transparency" is just a buzzword. I really don't know what we expect our administrations to tell us, at least in terms of executive action. More transparency from the legislature I understand. Most congressional bills are written in dense legalese and often make tiny alterations to other laws. Discovering the effects of a single day's worth of Congressional acts can take weeks. In terms of the executive, I would want to know who the president and his staff are talking to, and the content of what they're saying. I'd want to know what promises he's making and to whom he's making them. And in that regard, Bush was substantially worse than Obama has been. But if we're discussing it, the policy of killing US citizens abroad with drones (or really by any means) is 100% wrong.
    I think there's widespread agreement across the political spectrum that national security is different, and that some amount of opacity is not only tolerable, but necessary. Also, I don't remember Obama promising transparency when it came to national security matters; ISTR the transparency being aimed more towards legislative acts and domestic policy.



    No, it's not. Richard Clarke, the man in charge of anti terrorist operations in 2001, has gone on record that on the day of 9/11, Bush personally ordered that a link between Iraq and the Twin Tower attacks be found. Not that Clarke discover the culprits, but that he find a way to pin it on Saddam.
    And then there was Colin Powells calling the evidence of Iraqi WMD's "bull****" and another administration official (I think it was Wolfowitz) saying that they pushed the idea of Iraq having WMD's because it was the easiest to sell to the american public
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    And which administration would you claim intentionally misled the country into a war?
    Woodrow Wilson with WW1 and Bush Jr with Iraq.
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Woodrow Wilson with WW1 and Bush Jr with Iraq.
    False on both, although Wilson was a schemer.
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No, it's not. Richard Clarke, the man in charge of anti terrorist operations in 2001, has gone on record that on the day of 9/11, Bush personally ordered that a link between Iraq and the Twin Tower attacks be found. Not that Clarke discover the culprits, but that he find a way to pin it on Saddam.
    That's mostly attributable to a list of likely culprits and likely explanations. It was part of the group-think, cherry picking problem. The intentional misleading line people have been peddling is not really there. The biggest problem, and it is a massive problem, is that portions of the administration honestly believed certain ideas so much that they were looking for anything to confirm their suspicions. It's been a demonstrative problem with American foreign policy for generations. It's just that it's not every time the government gets to fully employ what it considers to be the reality on the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangha
    And then there was Colin Powells calling the evidence of Iraqi WMD's "bull****" and another administration official (I think it was Wolfowitz) saying that they pushed the idea of Iraq having WMD's because it was the easiest to sell to the american public
    Powell's side was that he had wanted to give the U.N. a shot instead of dismissing it so readily, as many in the DOD were wanting to do (because they-the U.N. "wouldn't get it"). Basically he wanted to do what he considered the right thing, given the circumstances. He knew the administration was more willing to move forward, but he at least wanted to give the U.N. a shot at not only hearing the case, but possibly aiding it in whatever way possible. To him, that was better than just saying, "to hell with the world body." With Wolfowitz's remarks, his statement on that was actually that there was a laundry list of reasons why folks within the administration thought it justifiable to remove Saddam, but the people arguing about those points could only unify around the assumption that Saddam had WMDs. That was the one assumption the overwhelming majority agreed on. The democracy portion, perhaps any economic benefits after invasion, so on and so forth, those individual points would have less support across the board, as each camp was in favor of one thing, but not another.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-16-13 at 07:31 PM.
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    See, and I'm wondering what part of that you didn't know about at the time. We've known about drone attacks for years, and even if the administration did not specifically say that it was targeting US citizens who were allegedly allied with terrorists, the moment it actually happened, everyone knew about it. I'm honestly unsure about what sort of transparency you were expecting here. Do you want the government to be posting its criteria to determine what terrorist training camps it will attack? Or a full dossier on its terrorist suspects?
    Independent reporting on something isn't the same as the administration being open and transparent about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    You know, after contemplating this for a bit, I'm starting to think that "transparency" is just a buzzword. I really don't know what we expect our administrations to tell us, at least in terms of executive action. More transparency from the legislature I understand. Most congressional bills are written in dense legalese and often make tiny alterations to other laws. Discovering the effects of a single day's worth of Congressional acts can take weeks. In terms of the executive, I would want to know who the president and his staff are talking to, and the content of what they're saying. I'd want to know what promises he's making and to whom he's making them. And in that regard, Bush was substantially worse than Obama has been. But if we're discussing it, the policy of killing US citizens abroad with drones (or really by any means) is 100% wrong.
    The Obama administration was caught meeting with parties outside the white house to intentionally avoid them being named on the white house visitor logs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No, it's not. Richard Clarke, the man in charge of anti terrorist operations in 2001, has gone on record that on the day of 9/11, Bush personally ordered that a link between Iraq and the Twin Tower attacks be found. Not that Clarke discover the culprits, but that he find a way to pin it on Saddam.
    can you share the exact quote with us? Because I recall Clarke's claims more being along the line that they were already convinced there was a connection, and dismissed intelligence that went against this, as opposed to an order to manufacture intelligence

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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post


    No, it's not. Richard Clarke, the man in charge of anti terrorist operations in 2001, has gone on record that on the day of 9/11, Bush personally ordered that a link between Iraq and the Twin Tower attacks be found. Not that Clarke discover the culprits, but that he find a way to pin it on Saddam.
    You'll need to provide a link to support that. Clarke is a self-important big-mouth, but I've never heard of him saying anything quite so fictional.
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    Re: Is the Obama administration the "most transparent administration in history"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That's mostly attributable to a list of likely culprits and likely explanations. It was part of the group-think, cherry picking problem. The intentional misleading line people have been peddling is not really there. The biggest problem, and it is a massive problem, is that portions of the administration honestly believed certain ideas so much that they were looking for anything to confirm their suspicions. It's been a demonstrative problem with American foreign policy for generations.
    this has always been my general impression of events, as well.

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