View Poll Results: Was Dorner executed or was it an unfortunate consequence?

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  • YES, police knew teargas would burn him alive.

    37 68.52%
  • NO, it was an honest attempt to subdue him.

    17 31.48%
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Thread: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

  1. #191
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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptinSarcastic View Post
    I get that, and generally agree, so as I said, I would not be upset if they intentionally killed the guy, but I also recognize that this would not (and should not) be normal police procedure, but I suspect if the police had gone this route, they would be able to justify it.

    For example, the police did not know if the cabin was just a random destination or if the killer had pre-planned to be at this destination and had resources in place to incure further harm. If this was even suspected, most people would agree that aggressive action would not have been unwarranted.

    I would rather castigate the police for the very many obvious violation of the rights of innocent people than argue this one.

    I find the process, procedure, and outcome to be acceptable, it is fine if other's don't.
    I don't think it should taken lightly that the police be given a license to kill indiscriminately. It has historically not worked out well for people when this kind of power is given to law enforcement in the field. Too many decisions based on emotions and quick responses lead to horrible mistakes and miscarriages of justice.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  2. #192
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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't think it should taken lightly that the police be given a license to kill indiscriminately. It has historically not worked out well for people when this kind of power is given to law enforcement in the field. Too many decisions based on emotions and quick responses lead to horrible mistakes and miscarriages of justice.
    Where do I argue that indiscrimate killing by police should be acceptable?

    I have simply argued that I do not personally find fault in this instance, and, perhaps more importantly, if one wants to make an arguement against police overstepping their authority, there are thousands of better examples.

    I would argue that making a case based on this incident is analogous to defending gun rights with a plaintive that murdered people with a gun.

    Radly Balko has hundreds of examples of cops killing actually innocent people. if you want to make a stand on this issue, and I wholeheartedly agree with making a stand, this is case is not the ground on which I would recommend planting your flag.

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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptinSarcastic View Post
    Where do I argue that indiscrimate killing by police should be acceptable?

    I have simply argued that I do not personally find fault in this instance, and, perhaps more importantly, if one wants to make an arguement against police overstepping their authority, there are thousands of better examples.

    I would argue that making a case based on this incident is analogous to defending gun rights with a plaintive that murdered people with a gun.

    Radly Balko has hundreds of examples of cops killing actually innocent people. if you want to make a stand on this issue, and I wholeheartedly agree with making a stand, this is case is not the ground on which I would recommend planting your flag.
    This is exactly where one should place their flag, actually. If this is the weakest case to support an argument, and if the argument is valid in this case, then it would be valid in all cases.

    The question we should be asking you is: Why is this case different than any other situation? Do we know that the man in the cabin was Dorner? Do we know that he was guilty?

    Personally, I'm glad he died. Very glad. But I don't think it's the job of the police to make that call in any case. If there are problems with our court system and you don't have confidence in it to find him guilty - or if you think our penetentry system wouldn't be a situation appropriate for his circumstances (perhaps you believe he should be in worse conditions for example), then that is where you should focus your arguments. Not on giving police inconsistent powers to kill the perps.

  4. #194
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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptinSarcastic View Post
    Where do I argue that indiscrimate killing by police should be acceptable?

    I have simply argued that I do not personally find fault in this instance, and, perhaps more importantly, if one wants to make an arguement against police overstepping their authority, there are thousands of better examples.

    I would argue that making a case based on this incident is analogous to defending gun rights with a plaintive that murdered people with a gun.

    Radly Balko has hundreds of examples of cops killing actually innocent people. if you want to make a stand on this issue, and I wholeheartedly agree with making a stand, this is case is not the ground on which I would recommend planting your flag.
    If you're saying it doesn't matter how they got Dorner as long as they got him, then you're supporting indiscriminate killing, incorrect?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  5. #195
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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    This is exactly where one should place their flag, actually. If this is the weakest case to support an argument, and if the argument is valid in this case, then it would be valid in all cases.

    The question we should be asking you is: Why is this case different than any other situation? Do we know that the man in the cabin was Dorner? Do we know that he was guilty?

    Personally, I'm glad he died. Very glad. But I don't think it's the job of the police to make that call in any case. If there are problems with our court system and you don't have confidence in it to find him guilty - or if you think our penetentry system wouldn't be a situation appropriate for his circumstances (perhaps you believe he should be in worse conditions for example), then that is where you should focus your arguments. Not on giving police inconsistent powers to kill the perps.
    The I guess that is where you'll plant your flag. I believe that the police have already made a valid case for their actions, and will do so in greater detail in the days and weeks ahead, such that few will find any reason for outrage, but there will of course be that few, there always is. I think popular outrage is important, and there are many cases that could, and should stir up popular outrage, but this just ain't one of them.

    But good luck with that.

  6. #196
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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't think it should taken lightly that the police be given a license to kill indiscriminately. It has historically not worked out well for people when this kind of power is given to law enforcement in the field. Too many decisions based on emotions and quick responses lead to horrible mistakes and miscarriages of justice.
    They don't have a license to kill indiscriminately.

    I'm curious as to just what someone has to do in order to justifiable pop his head off since engaging the police in a direct gunfight doesn't cut it.
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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    If you're saying it doesn't matter how they got Dorner as long as they got him, then you're supporting indiscriminate killing, incorrect?
    No, I am not saying that, I am saying that I am satisfied with the explanation the police have given to date. If new details emerge, I may change my opinion.

    What I said, specifically, and you have read it, was this, "Clearly, if there is evidence that police started the fire intentionally, there should be consequences. But if police used a more aggressive gas cannister knowing it might start a fire, but would also be more likely to drive the suspect out of the cabin, I say fine."

    How does this translate into supporting indsicriminate killing?

    Define indiscriminate and then look at my comment.

    The Sandy Hook killer, once he entered the school, seemed to engage in indiscriminate killing. You see the difference, right?

    At the very, very least, the police DID discriminate, even if they did intentionally kill the guy. But as I said, at the moment, I see no evidence that is the case,

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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    They don't have a license to kill indiscriminately.

    I'm curious as to just what someone has to do in order to justifiable pop his head off since engaging the police in a direct gunfight doesn't cut it.
    I don't think we want the police killing easily or making decisions based on emotion because it makes them judge, jury and executioner. I'm not saying the police were wrong in this instance but it doesn't look good for them to use an incendiary device to burn a suspect out because, until any of us are convicted, regardless of how bad it looks were still not guilty by law.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    I don't think the tear gas was intentionally used to start a fire... The tear gas was most likely meant to cause him to run out, give up, or just simply give them an advantage in the standoff.

    The guy had already went far beyond trying to take him down peacefully. He had already killed a cop on the scene. You shoot to kill when an armed target is actively shooting and killing your men... there is no injustice here. If he screamed out I GIVE UP and ran out naked dropping to the ground with his hands behind his back, then yea, don't kill him. But he showed no signs of giving up shooting at police.

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    Re: Dorner: Executed or Accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I don't think we want the police killing easily or making decisions based on emotion because it makes them judge, jury and executioner. I'm not saying the police were wrong in this instance but it doesn't look good for them to use an incendiary device to burn a suspect out because, until any of us are convicted, regardless of how bad it looks were still not guilty by law.
    I have not seen anyone anywhere, until now, suggest that police used the incendiary version of the tear gas delivery device with the intention of burning the guy to death. we have been told that it was used to drive him out with the stronger tear gas, and fire was a possibility, but even if the officers wanted to start the fire, the fire by no means required that the suspect be burned to death. He could have easily just exited the building and surrendered.

    He apparently chose not to go this route, and it is likely that he shot himself instead.

    Did the police kill him at all?

    I really don't think so.

    If your house catches fire, do you leave, or do you stay and shoot yourself?
    Last edited by CaptinSarcastic; 02-14-13 at 06:12 PM. Reason: missing word

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