View Poll Results: Should lying Mass Media be punished?

Voters
12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, but for a lack of professional journalism.

    1 8.33%
  • No, they told the truth.

    3 25.00%
  • Yes, for collusion to promote a false agenda.

    5 41.67%
  • No, they were just doing a favor to get inside access.

    0 0%
  • If they lied before, they are lying now?

    1 8.33%
  • This just represents Mass Media manipulation and is normal.

    6 50.00%
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Thread: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

  1. #41
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What are you talking about? I have no idea where you are arbitrarily pulling out $.05 or what its purpose is but its irrelevant. Your contention has been that American oil companies assisted in instigating the Iraq War in order to gain access to Iraqi oil fields. It is a statement of fact that the majority of Iraqi field services and extraction contracts have not gone to American companies. Moreover if your contention is that oil is now flowing into the international market (which would assist in bringing price stability not increasing them) that was true when the INOC and the Oil Ministry were distributing crude in the Oil for Food Program. I also have no idea what you are talking about when you say "Their systems" what exactly does that mean? Their pipelines? Their tankers? Their refineries? I feel as though you vastly underestimate the complexity of energy markets let alone the crude industry, and much of what you think stems from an acute lack of understanding.
    Well now, Big Oil can make huge profits by drilling, transporting, refining, retailing, storing, or owning the product. If you are in the business, and not as naive as those who think you have to sit on it to profit from it, each of these words ending with 'ing' are very profitable. So, if Iraq's oil was not drilled, transported, refined, retailed, or stored by these big corporations before the war then you can be sure good businessmen were trying to figure out how to get this oil into their profit profile and lobby and scheme for good dollar and cents profit reasons to initiate actions that would achieve these results. Of course, I could use your logic that these people in the oil business are either too stupid or too loyal to argue against it. One of us would be a moron, I guess. Let's see. It's about capitalism. That's about profit. There's a large profit if the war can get the Iraq oil in the Western distribution network. Is this too simple? I typed real slow.

  2. #42
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    How the Iraq War Was Sold

    "The Washington Post continues to allow former members of the Bush administration, including President George W. Bush, to distort the case for going to war against Iraq in 2003 and to blame the intelligence from the Central Intelligence Agency for the decision to use force.In the “Outlook” section on Feb. 3 (“Still Fighting over a flawed case for war”), the Post cites memoirs from six key decision-makers, who are unwilling to acknowledge that the Iraq War was a deadly undertaking paved by lies and deceit.
    It was never a case of whether the White House distorted the intelligence it received on Iraq or whether the Central Intelligence Agency provided bad intelligence to the White House. In fact, both the White House and the CIA had a hand in the distortion of intelligence and both contributed to making the phony case for war to the Congress and the American people."

    Where Are They Now? The Reporters Who Got Iraq So Wrong

    "Ten years ago today, Colin Powell made the Bush administration's case for going to war against Iraq. Much of what he said about Iraq's threats to the United States was false. But the media coverage gave the opposite impression, and most of the pundits and journalists who promoted the justifications for the war paid no price for their failures."

    Is the Patriot Act necessary or an over-reaction to these lies?
    Is Homeland Security necessary?
    Is the TSA necessary?
    Did the war waste a Trillion dollars of public money?
    Does the public at large really care or want to know?
    Why do we allow the perpetuation of these myths?
    Did any particular group profit handsomely from this war?
    What were the real reasons for the war?
    As Citizens, "Do we not want to believe we've been bamboozled?"


    I think now, today the vast majority of Americans have put Iraq behind them and don’t care if they were lied to or not. The only ones who care are the very partisan die hard Democrats wanting to continue to tar Bush. Was it faulty intelligence at the time or was the intelligence just read wrong, the analyst had it wrong. We probably should hope they were wrong, it would be mighty easy to hide a bunch of 55 gallon drums in Iraq’s desert that were full of chemical and biological weapons or they got rid of them just prior to the war. To me the Patriot Act seems over kill, Homeland security and TSA, probably needed, but not to the extent these two agencies have become.

    The good news is another 9-11 hasn’t happened, but the unanswered question is with the loss of freedom that has been forced upon the citizens in the name of security worth it? As one of the founding fathers said and this is a paraphrase: A citizen who chooses security over liberty, will soon have neither.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  3. #43
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Well now, Big Oil can make huge profits by drilling, transporting, refining, retailing, storing, or owning the product. If you are in the business, and not as naive as those who think you have to sit on it to profit from it, each of these words ending with 'ing' are very profitable. So, if Iraq's oil was not drilled, transported, refined, retailed, or stored by these big corporations before the war then you can be sure good businessmen were trying to figure out how to get this oil into their profit profile and lobby and scheme for good dollar and cents profit reasons to initiate actions that would achieve these results. Of course, I could use your logic that these people in the oil business are either too stupid or too loyal to argue against it. One of us would be a moron, I guess. Let's see. It's about capitalism. That's about profit. There's a large profit if the war can get the Iraq oil in the Western distribution network. Is this too simple? I typed real slow.
    'Big Oil' is not a company I've ever heard of and therein lies the problem of this conspiracy theory. It relies upon a general dislike for 'corporations' and international business to put across extremely vague and nebulous accusations. I've pointed out again and again that American companies did not win many contracts of any kind when it came to Iraq's oil services and extraction opportunities. So no they did not benefit from any of the aforementioned areas. Some companies did, like Norway's DNO which won some contracts in the Iraqi KRG but American companies decisively lagged behind. Your premise is flawed because it is factually inaccurate. Falling back on the assertion that "Well... corporations and big oil benefited" is an absurdly weak argument.

  4. #44
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    'Big Oil' is not a company I've ever heard of and therein lies the problem of this conspiracy theory. It relies upon a general dislike for 'corporations' and international business to put across extremely vague and nebulous accusations. I've pointed out again and again that American companies did not win many contracts of any kind when it came to Iraq's oil services and extraction opportunities. So no they did not benefit from any of the aforementioned areas. Some companies did, like Norway's DNO which won some contracts in the Iraqi KRG but American companies decisively lagged behind. Your premise is flawed because it is factually inaccurate. Falling back on the assertion that "Well... corporations and big oil benefited" is an absurdly weak argument.
    If you are a Big USA Energy Corporation and you do not lobby and give money to your Congressman to try to get a war started in Iran right now, then you are a damn poor businessman, because that is how it is done. Iran's oil is embargoed and so no UN Nations touch that oil. If you can start a war there, and get the oil un-embargoed, then you can get that OIL back into your profit stream, whether it be drilling, transporting, refining, retailing or storing. If you are naive enough to think that this is not how capitalism is done, then I can't help you, even if I type really slow. Think ExxonMobil, Chevron, Total, BP, Haliburton, KBR, Bechtel and see if your Congressman got any free money from these "perps."

  5. #45
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    If you are a Big USA Energy Corporation and you do not lobby and give money to your Congressman to try to get a war started in Iran right now, then you are a damn poor businessman, because that is how it is done. Iran's oil is embargoed and so no UN Nations touch that oil. If you can start a war there, and get the oil un-embargoed, then you can get that OIL back into your profit stream, whether it be drilling, transporting, refining, retailing or storing. If you are naive enough to think that this is not how capitalism is done, then I can't help you, even if I type really slow. Think ExxonMobil, Chevron, Total, BP, Haliburton, KBR, Bechtel and see if your Congressman got any free money from these "perps."
    That literally had nothing to do with my post. Moreover you have an incredibly high burden to show that any of those companies are actively lobbying for a war with Iran, and furthermore it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. It is also hilariously convoluted logic:

    1. We want Iranian oil.
    2. We have enough influence and power to force the US government into a war with Iran.
    3. We use it to get that oil because it is under sanction and we cannot currently contract directly for shipping or servicing their fields (not that it would matter because Iran has a state oil company and Oil Ministry, like Saudi Arabia and virtually all the GCC states in which most up and mid stream development is controlled by the state)
    4. But instead of using our apparently obscene levels of influence to... remove sanctions we decide to go to war. Why? PROFIT???!

    It is audibly ludicrous to anyone who reads it aloud. Once again though you are avoiding the issue because you do not have an answer.

  6. #46
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    That literally had nothing to do with my post. Moreover you have an incredibly high burden to show that any of those companies are actively lobbying for a war with Iran, and furthermore it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. It is also hilariously convoluted logic:

    1. We want Iranian oil.
    2. We have enough influence and power to force the US government into a war with Iran.
    3. We use it to get that oil because it is under sanction and we cannot currently contract directly for shipping or servicing their fields (not that it would matter because Iran has a state oil company and Oil Ministry, like Saudi Arabia and virtually all the GCC states in which most up and mid stream development is controlled by the state)
    4. But instead of using our apparently obscene levels of influence to... remove sanctions we decide to go to war. Why? PROFIT???!

    It is audibly ludicrous to anyone who reads it aloud. Once again though you are avoiding the issue because you do not have an answer.
    Since you have no conception of how Oil Distribution works, I probably can't help you, but you are a perfect example of someone who's been listening to TV for too long. Seek the truth and you will find it, it won't find you. However, I do think you just revealed how the Iraq War started.

  7. #47
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Since you have no conception of how Oil Distribution works, I probably can't help you, but you are a perfect example of someone who's been listening to TV for too long. Seek the truth and you will find it, it won't find you.
    I work with the energy industry from a legal perspective, and write about the energy industry for academic and analytic institutions in areas which require a healthy understanding of distribution, security, and basic market analysis. I think I have a cursory understanding of how it works.

    But I do love the typical conspiracy theorist's rejoinder. "You've been listening to the MEDIA for too long, only I know the truth and I cant help you." It must feel very validating.

  8. #48
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I think now, today the vast majority of Americans have put Iraq behind them and don’t care if they were lied to or not. The only ones who care are the very partisan die hard Democrats wanting to continue to tar Bush. Was it faulty intelligence at the time or was the intelligence just read wrong, the analyst had it wrong. We probably should hope they were wrong, it would be mighty easy to hide a bunch of 55 gallon drums in Iraq’s desert that were full of chemical and biological weapons or they got rid of them just prior to the war. To me the Patriot Act seems over kill, Homeland security and TSA, probably needed, but not to the extent these two agencies have become.

    The good news is another 9-11 hasn’t happened, but the unanswered question is with the loss of freedom that has been forced upon the citizens in the name of security worth it? As one of the founding fathers said and this is a paraphrase: A citizen who chooses security over liberty, will soon have neither.
    If you will listen to the ravings of Sherman123 you will see that there are still those who don't know they were lied to. I'm a Green, not a Dem. I think the Mass Media has not been held responsible for their culpability in the matter. That means it can happen again. I'd prefer to be able to trust the media as the group working for the citizens of this Nation. remember the "third estate." The current is more like subverting us than informing us.

  9. #49
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    This was the second Iraq war. The first Iraq war achieved an objective and left. The second Iraq war was an explosion of profits. If Saddam was so bad why didn't we take him down and depart? Why are we financing them to this very day? Why have we eroded our honor and hurt so many of us for so little reward?

    Vietnam was equally pointless but differently motivated. Maybe we'll figure it out during this century.




    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yes, because Vietnam was in violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNCRS, had committed genocide twice, sold food causing 400k children to die, fired at enforcement planes in the international no fly zone created to prevent further genocide and pretended to be developing and have WMDs.

  10. #50
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    Re: Iraq War lies, past and present, and punishments?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    If you will listen to the ravings of Sherman123 you will see that there are still those who don't know they were lied to. I'm a Green, not a Dem. I think the Mass Media has not been held responsible for their culpability in the matter. That means it can happen again. I'd prefer to be able to trust the media as the group working for the citizens of this Nation. remember the "third estate." The current is more like subverting us than informing us.
    I think the media as a whole has their own agenda at times. With the stringent control Saddam had over the media in Iraq, there really was no way for them to know if he had WMD's or not. The intelligence folks IMO had a better idea, knew more. Whether the analyst got it right or not, I don't really know. I think what bothered me most in going to war with Iraq, it was our first war of prevention. Iraq hadn't used those weapons yet and IMO, wasn't really a threat to the U.S. In all other wars, the nation we went to war with did something against us. They made the first move. I am still bothered by that some, not so much whether or not WMD existed or not.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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