Why are there so few female mass murderers?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

In my experience, this varies a lot depending on where you are. In Minneapolis? Yeah, I'd say younger guys tend to be better adjusted -- but not all (see my example -- he's gonna grow up some day).

But Tucson? DC? Tennessee? No, I don't think so.

I know a lot men tend to express a little differently. But I think a lot of these incidences are avoidable, and have a lot to do with social training.

To be honest, I'm not even sure how innate those expression differences are. I've met men who out-communicate me and they were raised in more open environments.

Click to expand...

I agree that social training is a big factor, which is why we see some countries more violent than others. If it were strictly a male/female distinction, we would see closer numbers between countries than we do.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Believe me, women do too in this kind of employer's market. The fact stands that men are less likely to seek help for emotional problems, and I see wide variation on how men communicate, depending on whether they were raised to "be manly and silent" or whether they were allowed to express themselves.

Click to expand...

Just what I see in my peer group, these guys come from all walks and upbringing.
We say things to each other when the womenz ain't around.

Guys, in my experience, tend to share with other guys or trusted women.

When it comes to places like work, guys are at a disadvantage, because we're not as likely to tell on someone for getting upset with us.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Just what I see in my peer group, these guys come from all walks and upbringing.
We say things to each other when the womenz ain't around.

Guys, in my experience, tend to share with other guys or trusted women.

When it comes to places like work, guys are at a disadvantage, because we're not as likely to tell on someone for getting upset with us.

Click to expand...

I have seen some very stark examples of men descending into extreme depression or addiction simply because they were unwilling to admit they needed help, let alone ask for it. Simply denying being upset or depressed despite obvious and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Whether they deal with it effectively is another matter, but I don't see women simply deny it anywhere near as often.

Believe it or not, I have known men outside of professional situations. With friends, I tend to be the chick who's "kind of a guy." I don't pretend to know whether they let it all hang out, but it seems like they do, from all description. I can hold my own.

Men get harassed and made fun of for admitting to being upset. Even if they themselves are ok with it, larger society mostly isn't -- even now. Parents in 2013 are still leaving their boys to cry and teaching them to be violent. Actively. Intentionally.

I have a hard time believing this has no affect on how they grow up, and the level of violence we see from men. Not to mention how much more effective they are when they decide to kill themselves. I just don't believe this has nothing to do with socialization, and all of the evidence suggests it is way more complex than simply biology.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I have seen some very stark examples of men descending into extreme depression or addiction simply because they were unwilling to admit they needed help, let alone ask for it. Simply denying being upset or depressed despite obvious and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Whether they deal with it effectively is another matter, but I don't see women simply deny it anywhere near as often.

Believe it or not, I have known men outside of professional situations.

Men get harassed and made fun of for admitting to being upset. Even if they themselves are ok with it, larger society mostly isn't -- even now. Parents in 2013 are still leaving their boys to cry and teaching them to be violent. Actively. Intentionally.

I have a hard time believing this has no affect on how they grow up, and the level of violence we see from men. Not to mention how much more effective they are when they decide to kill themselves. I just don't believe this has nothing to do with socialization, and all of the evidence suggests it is way more complex than simply biology.

Click to expand...

It's not taught, it's just how we are.

If it were taught, the brain would start rejecting it eventually.
Social conditioning works only if it's a constant.

I mean, we seem to find that boys with no fathers, in the care of single mothers are more likely to be incarcerated.

In school (middle and high school) yes boys get ****ed hard for showing emotion.
That's because school is like a prison environment, you can't show weakness otherwise you get pushed to the lower pecking orders.

Catawba said:

Is it because males do not handle social rejection as well as females?

Are males just more violent than females?

Or other, an please explain;

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Mass murder and serial killing doesn't have anything to do with rejection. Rejection can trigger a violent response in an already violent or otherwise unstable person, but that person is already a psychological mess. Generally, women are caregivers. They're genetically aimed towards caring for their offspring, which usually tends to be projected towards more than their own children. However, there is no shortage of violent women who are guilty of multiple killings. Some are very brutal. Some case I've heard of recently consisted of a woman who slit a mans throat, stabbed him 29 times, and put a bullet in his head comes to mind, but that was just one victim. There's Aileen Wuornos, a prostitute who killed seven people in Florida. Jennifer San Marco shot her neighbor in the head, then went to her former job and killed six others before killing herself. Andrea Yates killed all five of her children. Debra Brown left with her lover Alton Coleman, both went on a two month killing spree across six states, killing 8 people. Amy Bishop shot and killed 3 people at the university she was employed by, and there is question of whether or not she murdered her brother in 1986. Then there's the "Black Widow" Belle Gunness, who is believed to have killed anywhere between 25 and 40 people. There's Linda Kasabian and Patricia Krenwinkel, who murdered Sharon Tate and her guests in the most shockingly brutal mass murder of the decade.

The list goes on, but women are not incapable of unspeakable violence.

Harry Guerrilla said:

It's not taught, it's just how we are.

If it were taught, the brain would start rejecting it eventually.
Social conditioning works only if it's a constant.

I mean, we seem to find that boys with no fathers, in the care of single mothers are more likely to be incarcerated.

Click to expand...

Start rejecting it? What?

People who grow up in abusive homes are more likely to abuse/be abused. People who were born to teen parents are more likely to become teen parents. On and on and on.

People don't simply decide that they're going to unwind 20 years of training just like that, and then everything is all better. That's a process that can take a lifetime, and some people still fail.

People can and do change, but trying to undo the training of being ignored as an infant is not a simple thing. It's something he may not even know about himself. How does he know he was trained?

This is frankly a bizarre notion of psychology that has pretty much no evidence behind it.

Also, someone posted a link showing the wide variation in cultural violence. If it's "just how men are," why are the differences so enormous?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Start rejecting it? What?

Click to expand...

Conditioning needs to be somewhat of a constant for it to continue to work en mass.
It's why people born in NK, eventually stop doing all the things the were conditioned to do, once they leave NK.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

People who grow up in abusive homes are more likely to abuse/be abused. People who were born to teen parents are more likely to become teen parents. On and on and on.

People don't simply decide that they're going to unwind 20 years of training just like that, and then everything is all better. That's a process that can take a lifetime, and some people still fail.

People can and do change, but trying to undo the training of being ignored as an infant is not a simple thing. It's something he may not even know about himself. How does he know he was trained?

This is frankly a bizarre notion of psychology that has pretty much no evidence behind it.

Click to expand...

No there is evidence that most of the differences between men and women are biological/evolutionary.
It's only in modern times that femnazism has tried to rewrite science and history, with a "everyone by default is born equal" lie.
With no backing, it's become such a common farce, that anything to the contrary it called heresy.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Also, someone posted a link showing the wide variation in cultural violence. If it's "just how men are," why are the differences so enormous?

Click to expand...

Homicide rates are just crime rates with various reasons behind them.
None of which are spelled out at all.

Surtr said:

Mass murder and serial killing doesn't have anything to do with rejection. Rejection can trigger a violent response in an already violent or otherwise unstable person, but that person is already a psychological mess. Generally, women are caregivers. They're genetically aimed towards caring for their offspring, which usually tends to be projected towards more than their own children. However, there is no shortage of violent women who are guilty of multiple killings. Some are very brutal. Some case I've heard of recently consisted of a woman who slit a mans throat, stabbed him 29 times, and put a bullet in his head comes to mind, but that was just one victim. There's Aileen Wuornos, a prostitute who killed seven people in Florida. Jennifer San Marco shot her neighbor in the head, then went to her former job and killed six others before killing herself. Andrea Yates killed all five of her children. Debra Brown left with her lover Alton Coleman, both went on a two month killing spree across six states, killing 8 people. Amy Bishop shot and killed 3 people at the university she was employed by, and there is question of whether or not she murdered her brother in 1986. Then there's the "Black Widow" Belle Gunness, who is believed to have killed anywhere between 25 and 40 people. There's Linda Kasabian and Patricia Krenwinkel, who murdered Sharon Tate and her guests in the most shockingly brutal mass murder of the decade.

The list goes on, but women are not incapable of unspeakable violence.

Click to expand...

Harry Guerrilla said:

It's not taught, it's just how we are.

If it were taught, the brain would start rejecting it eventually.
Social conditioning works only if it's a constant.

I mean, we seem to find that boys with no fathers, in the care of single mothers are more likely to be incarcerated.

In school (middle and high school) yes boys get ****ed hard for showing emotion.
That's because school is like a prison environment, you can't show weakness otherwise you get pushed to the lower pecking orders.

Click to expand...

So men are more of a psychological mess than women? How do you explain the wide discrepancy in intentional homicides between countries if is solely a gender issue?

Catawba said:

So men are more of a psychological mess than women? How do you explain the wide discrepancy in intentional homicides between countries if is solely a gender issue?

Click to expand...

Yes, in a way.
Intelligence scales for women and men are equal on average, but when broken down men tend to be really intelligent or dumb as bricks.
Women tend to hug the average.

International homicide rates are but one blip on a complicated subject.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Conditioning needs to be somewhat of a constant for it to continue to work en mass.
It's why people born in NK, eventually stop doing all the things the were conditioned to do, once they leave NK.

Click to expand...

Then why do people spend sometimes their entire lives trying to undo the conditioning of their childhoods?

Hell, I just noticed something about myself the other day that isn't ideal, and probably from my childhood. Based on experience, this is going to take me years to get it where I want it. And I'm not a depressed, "damaged" person. I'm intelligent and very self-aware, and I do a lot of self-work. I'm relatively well adjusted -- I just don't particularly like this habit of mine. It's still gonna take me years. What do you think it's like for someone who doesn't even realize what's happening to them or really is a damaged person?

No there is evidence that most of the differences between men and women are biological/evolutionary.
It's only in modern times that femnazism has tried to rewrite science and history, with a "everyone by default is born equal" lie.
With no backing, it's become such a common farce, that anything to the contrary it called heresy.

Click to expand...

You are way, way over-simplying this issue.

There is an enormous amount of debate of how much environment affects the sexes, and almost no one who knows anything about it says "not at all." There's also a lot of evidence that men and women much more similar than strictly gender normative cultures would lead you to believe. This is hardly surprising, considering some cultures don't even have the same genders we do.

It is quite likely that at least half of this equation is environmental. And it's frankly insane to even try to say environment has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, I think it's pretty insulting to men to simply say it's "how guys are." It obviously isn't. I can see that by just observing generational differences between men. It implies that men just aren't very intelligent, or very human, really.

Homicide rates are just crime rates with various reasons behind them.
None of which are spelled out at all.

Click to expand...

There are countries where violence against women is literally an institution. Is that nature as well?

Harry Guerrilla said:

Yes, in a way.
Intelligence scales for women and men are equal on average, but when broken down men tend to be really intelligent or dumb as bricks.
Women tend to hug the average.

International homicide rates are but one blip on a complicated subject.

Click to expand...

They happen to be the blip this thread is about. And I don't buy your personal theory that it is all gender related, as many other countries are not as violent.

Here is an academic paper on the subject that refers to several studies that indicate "hegemonic masculinity," that is more of a cultural creation.

http://www.academia.edu/1199492/Hegemonic_Masculinity_and_Mass_Murderers_in_the_United_States

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Then why do people spend sometimes their entire lives trying to undo the conditioning of their childhoods?

Hell, I just noticed something about myself the other day that isn't ideal, and probably from my childhood. Based on experience, this is going to take me years to get it where I want it. And I'm not a depressed, "damaged" person. I'm intelligent and very self-aware, and I do a lot of self-work. I'm relatively well adjusted -- I just don't particularly like this habit of mine. It's still gonna take me years. What do you think it's like for someone who doesn't even realize what's happening to them or really is a damaged person?

Click to expand...

Some types of conditioning are readily assembled.
It's not cut and dry like that.

If a type of conditioning is nearly always reinforced, then it's more likely to stick.
But then we need to ask ourselves, why is it nearly always reinforced?

Likely because these types of conditioning are biologically/evolutionary and are readily accepted by the population at large.
In the Pavlov's dog experiment, eventually the dogs mouth will stop watering, if the food is not brought.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

You are way, way over-simplying this issue.

There is an enormous amount of debate of how much environment affects the sexes, and almost no one who knows anything about it says "not at all." There's also a lot of evidence that men and women much more similar than strictly gender normative cultures would lead you to believe. This is hardly surprising, considering some cultures don't even have the same genders we do.

It is quite likely that at least half of this equation is environmental. And it's frankly insane to even try to say environment has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, I think it's pretty insulting to men to simply say it's "how guys are." It obviously isn't. I can see that by just observing generational differences between men. It implies that men just aren't very intelligent, or very human, really.

Click to expand...

No I don't think so.
It is complicated but it can be summed up with the "it's how humans are."

I don't buy the women and men are the same argument one bit.
It's an attempt to force gender neutrality, when there are very real reasons why it can't be forced.

It's not insulting to men at all.
To me, that sounds like a really backwards sexist statement.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

There are countries where violence against women is literally an institution. Is that nature as well?

Click to expand...

Not at all.
Not anymore than the court systems in developed nations are in catering towards women.

Catawba said:

They happen to be the blip this thread is about. And I don't buy your personal theory that it is all gender related, as many other countries are not as violent.

Here is an academic paper on the subject that refers to several studies that indicate "hegemonic masculinity," that is more of a cultural creation.

http://www.academia.edu/1199492/Hegemonic_Masculinity_and_Mass_Murderers_in_the_United_States

Click to expand...

You can't just focus on one thing, because violence manifests itself in more than one form.
It's a kind of "fallacy of a single cause" type argument.

Your link doesn't work.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Some types of conditioning are readily assembled.
It's not cut and dry like that.

If a type of conditioning is nearly always reinforced, then it's more likely to stick.
But then we need to ask ourselves, why is it nearly always reinforced?

Likely because these types of conditioning are biologically/evolutionary and are readily accepted by the population at large.
In the Pavlov's dog experiment, eventually the dogs mouth will stop watering, if the food is not brought.

Click to expand...

You're talking about a simple training trick. I'm talking about the emotional wiring of the human psyche. These two things are radically different from each other.

No I don't think so.
It is complicated but it can be summed up with the "it's how humans are."

I don't buy the women and men are the same argument one bit.
It's an attempt to force gender neutrality, when there are very real reasons why it can't be forced.

It's not insulting to men at all.
To me, that sounds like a really backwards sexist statement.

Click to expand...

I did not say they are "the same."

Show me one study saying that society has no impact on how people behave. Seriously. That is what you are arguing, and it's ridiculous.

You're comparing mens' emotions to dogs salivating. I am not the one being sexist.

Not at all.
Not anymore than the court systems in developed nations are in catering towards women.

Click to expand...

So, then, violence can have an awful lot to do with society. Glad we agree.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

You're talking about a simple training trick. I'm talking about the emotional wiring of the human psyche. These two things are radically different from each other.

Click to expand...

It may seem as such, but teaching children is but lots of "simple training tricks."
Some are readily assembled in the brain, more so than others.

If they aren't constantly reinforced, they tend to get lost.
At least some of them do.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I did not say they are "the same."

Click to expand...

Good deal.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Show me one study saying that society has no impact on how people behave. Seriously. That is what you are arguing, and it's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

I didn't say it didn't.
I'm saying that the way society acts towards some behaviors may in fact be biological/evolutionary.
Which rewards/encourages more of said behavior.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

You're comparing mens' emotions to dogs salivating. I am not the one being sexist.

Click to expand...

No, it's just a way to show that conditioning can eventually go away, if not constantly reinforced.
It sounds like the default position in most of these threads is that there is something wrong with men and it must be changed, to something similar to women.
That is pretty darn sexist, if you ask me.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

So, then, violence can have an awful lot to do with society. Glad we agree.

Click to expand...

Sometimes, absolutely.

Harry Guerrilla said:

You can't just focus on one thing, because violence manifests itself in more than one form.
It's a kind of "fallacy of a single cause" type argument.

Your link doesn't work.

Click to expand...

We are discussing why are there more male mass murderers, are we not? What better comparative data is there than intentional homicides in relation to that subject?

Try the link now, I think I've got it fixed.

Harry Guerrilla said:

I didn't say it didn't.
I'm saying that the way society acts towards some behaviors may in fact be biological/evolutionary.
Which rewards/encourages more of said behavior.

Click to expand...

Then why are they so different from one culture to the next?

No, it's just a way to show that conditioning can eventually go away, if not constantly reinforced.
It sounds like the default position in most of these threads is that there is something wrong with men and it must be changed, to something similar to women.
That is pretty darn sexist, if you ask me.

Click to expand...

I think there is something wrong killing people, yes. But I am not the one arguing that it's "just how guys are."

Catawba said:

So men are more of a psychological mess than women?

Click to expand...

Not inherently.

How do you explain the wide discrepancy in intentional homicides between countries if is solely a gender issue?

Click to expand...

I don't believe it's entirely a gender issue, but the vast differences between men and women are certainly a factor. All throughout the social classes, there is more pressure for men to perform than women. Even in modern "enlightened" structures, men are required to work harder to provide for the needs and wants of their families. The price of not doing so is extremely punitive. In poorer social classes, these extremes sometimes lead to domestic violence, physical abuse, like beating a young boys ass until he breaks because he isn't being manly enough, or because he's kind of a *****. That **** really ****s a kid up, but it's a ****ed up world we live in.

Catawba said:

We are discussing why are there more male mass murderers, are we not? What better comparative data is there than intentional homicides in relation to that subject?

Try the link now, I think I've got it fixed.

Click to expand...

We are, and I believe males are more likely to mass murder because it's part of our biological functioning.
We can kill easier than females and we have wonky brains.

But, homicide rates are the single factor towards violence and mental stability.
Like the Nordic countries, they may have less homicides but more suicides.


The link works now, but I don't believe the site is compatible with Chrome.
The text of the paper isn't showing up.
Thanks though.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Then why are they so different from one culture to the next?

Click to expand...

They aren't really all that different.
You may find some minor exceptions, but exceptions don't disprove the rule.

There is nearly always an undercurrent of typical human behavior between genders.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I think there is something wrong killing people, yes. But I am not the one arguing that it's "just how guys are."

Click to expand...

Killing isn't always wrong.

Harry Guerrilla said:

They aren't really all that different.
You may find some minor exceptions, but exceptions don't disprove the rule.

There is nearly always an undercurrent of typical human behavior between genders.

Click to expand...

They're extremely different. The world is split between monogamy, polygyny, and promiscuity. Some places have 2 genders. Some have 5. There are a few matriarchies around. And then there's hunter-gatherer societies, which are nearly void of patriarchy. Human cultures are extremely, almost unbelievably diverse.

The only kind you seem to be familiar with are post-agricultural, Abrahamic religious societies.

Killing isn't always wrong.

Click to expand...

*sigh*

Yes, I know. Are you going to address the point?

Surtr said:

Not inherently.

Click to expand...

I thought not.

I don't believe it's entirely a gender issue, but the vast differences between men and women are certainly a factor. All throughout the social classes, there is more pressure for men to perform than women. Even in modern "enlightened" structures, men are required to work harder to provide for the needs and wants of their families. The price of not doing so is extremely punitive. In poorer social classes, these extremes sometimes lead to domestic violence, physical abuse, like beating a young boys ass until he breaks because he isn't being manly enough, or because he's kind of a *****. That **** really ****s a kid up, but it's a ****ed up world we live in.

Click to expand...

No one has said gender wasn't "a" factor. Hedgemonic masculinity makes the most logical sense as the biggest factor when we compare intentional homicides by country.

By the way, most mass murderer's in the US are from middle class backgrounds, not poor backgrounds. The profile for a mass murderer in the US is middle class, white, young, male.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

They're extremely different. The world is split between monogamy, polygyny, and promiscuity. Some places have 2 genders. Some have 5. There are a few matriarchies around. And then there's hunter-gatherer societies, which are nearly void of patriarchy. Human cultures are extremely, almost unbelievably diverse.

The only kind you seem to be familiar with are post-agricultural, Abrahamic religious societies.

Click to expand...

Societies with our similar cultural/society standards are the most successful.
Little tribes here and there, with these odd little ways of functioning aren't sweeping the world.
In modern times, they are an anachronism.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

*sigh*

Yes, I know. Are you going to address the point?

Click to expand...

Guys have a greater capacity to kill.
It's ingrained in us, before birth.

Unless you're a dedicated psychologist who has studied this problem in depth... and have training and understanding on the matter, you're opinion is worthless in this thread and the whole thread is pretty darn inept.

I'm just saying...

Harry Guerrilla said:

We are, and I believe males are more likely to mass murder because it's part of our biological functioning.

We can kill easier than females and we have wonky brains.

But, homicide rates are the single factor towards violence and mental stability.
Like the Nordic countries, they may have less homicides but more suicides.


The link works now, but I don't believe the site is compatible with Chrome.
The text of the paper isn't showing up.
Thanks though.

Click to expand...

If you wish to start a thread about violence in general, please do so.

This one is about mass murders, and your personal theory doesn't explain the wide variation in intentional homicides in different countries.

Anyone else having trouble reading the text on the Hedgemonic Masculinity link I posted? Is Chrome the only browser you have access to?