View Poll Results: Are spy/assassinatin drones morally acceptable?

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  • Yes

    29 33.72%
  • No

    34 39.53%
  • Yes, with explanation

    20 23.26%
  • No or undecided with explanation

    3 3.49%
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Thread: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

  1. #61
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    Boo Radley's Avatar
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    What a fascinating claim. Can you back that up with the relevant JMEM data?
    Easily, with the civilian deaths linked to the attacks. If you doubt that, seriously, I will link civilians being killed in drone attacks for you later today.

    Joe

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  2. #62
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Easily, with the civilian deaths linked to the attacks. If you doubt that, seriously, I will link civilians being killed in drone attacks for you later today.

    Joe
    and I don't doubt that they happen. On purpose, even - the Laws of Armed Conflict state that Collateral Damage is allowable when reasonable mitigations have been made and the damage is proportional to the military advantage gained. Just because you use a human shield doesn't mean that you aren't worth killing. When we put together a target package we include Pattern of Life analysis along with standard Population Density studies in order to get a pretty good idea of how to minimize civilian death by altering our heading, our bomb types, delayed fusing, utilizing natural buffering, etc; but a dual-use target is still a dual-use target. If you use your bedroom to hide the shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles that you are smuggling, you don't get to complain when your bedroom get's blown up and your spouse dies with you. Laws of Armed Conflict also state that if you militarize what would otherwise be an unlawful target then you are culpable for the damage that target takes.

    But what I asked was with regards to your claims on accuracy, which is why I asked you to back your claim with JMEM data. What is the Circular Error Probable of an AGM-114 fired from an MQ-9? How about the blast radius for a 5ms Delayed Fuse AGM-114?
    Last edited by cpwill; 02-04-13 at 09:46 AM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and I don't doubt that they happen. On purpose, even - the Laws of Armed Conflict state that Collateral Damage is allowable when reasonable mitigations have been made and the damage is proportional to the military advantage gained. Just because you use a human shield doesn't mean that you aren't worth killing. When we put together a target package we include Pattern of Life analysis along with standard Population Density studies in order to get a pretty good idea of how to minimize civilian death by altering our heading, our bomb types, delayed fusing, utilizing natural buffering, etc; but a dual-use target is still a dual-use target. If you use your bedroom to hide the shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles that you are smuggling, you don't get to complain when your bedroom get's blown up and your spouse dies with you. Laws of Armed Conflict also state that if you militarize what would otherwise be an unlawful target then you are culpable for the damage that target takes.

    But what I asked was with regards to your claims on accuracy, which is why I asked you to back your claim with JMEM data. What is the Circular Error Probable of an AGM-114 fired from an MQ-9? How about the blast radius for a 5ms Delayed Fuse AGM-114?
    That speaks to accuracy. You can't just hit the bad guys. To be accurate enough in these situations (not nation against nation), that is the only way it would be morally acceptable.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #64
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That speaks to accuracy. You can't just hit the bad guys. To be accurate enough in these situations (not nation against nation), that is the only way it would be morally acceptable.
    Would it be equally "morally acceptable" for a foreign nation to zap folks within our borders for "good causes"? The entire idea of ignoring the nation (or worse, renting permission via foreign aid) harboring these "terrorists" and going directly after "criminals" (but without any trials, of course) within their borders is insane. We are attempting to fight the Jihad yet ignoring (or actually rewarding with aid) the nation's directly responsible for giving them safe harbor and free reign to act within its borders. Take Libya as an example, our "embassy" in Benghazi was under attack for about 7 hours yet ZERO was done about it by the "gov't" of Libya. We allowed Pakistan to give UBL a "hide out" yet still pay them billions in foreign aid even after they openly imprision (or worse) those that helped us find him.
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    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Would it be equally "morally acceptable" for a foreign nation to zap folks within our borders for "good causes"? The entire idea of ignoring the nation (or worse, renting permission via foreign aid) harboring these "terrorists" and going directly after "criminals" (but without any trials, of course) within their borders is insane. We are attempting to fight the Jihad yet ignoring (or actually rewarding with aid) the nation's directly responsible for giving them safe harbor and free reign to act within its borders. Take Libya as an example, our "embassy" in Benghazi was under attack for about 7 hours yet ZERO was done about it by the "gov't" of Libya. We allowed Pakistan to give UBL a "hide out" yet still pay them billions in foreign aid even after they openly imprision (or worse) those that helped us find him.
    Just because you can find something else that is immoral doesn't change the immorality of the action. There is also little evidence that these strikes make us any more safe. Benghazi happened with the drone strikes taking place. Something more surgical might be more effective.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #66
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    I think we should rely on those covert special ops people. The drones will kill more innocent people. Those people who signed up for special ops understand that they are risking their lives. They understand the risk and accept it. We don't want to lose lives, but that is always a risk. These guys can go in there and do a better job of making sure the target is killed rather than innocent people who might happen to be in the vicinity.

    Let those guys do what they signed up to do instead of just bombing things.
    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

  7. #67
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Ooo, so as long as we're not using nukes, there's no collateral damage to worry about? Most excellent!
    We actually didn't use nukes against Germany. You could look it up. But nice strawman.
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    I think we should rely on those covert special ops people. The drones will kill more innocent people. Those people who signed up for special ops understand that they are risking their lives. They understand the risk and accept it. We don't want to lose lives, but that is always a risk. These guys can go in there and do a better job of making sure the target is killed rather than innocent people who might happen to be in the vicinity.

    Let those guys do what they signed up to do instead of just bombing things.
    Yes, lets put the lives of U.S. soldiers at risk so that other people can feel better about the war on terror. I love people who are so anxious for others to submit themselves to danger so that their delicate sensibilities aren't threatened.

    Joining Special Forces doesn't mean you are available for any suicide mission that comes along.
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Just because you can find something else that is immoral doesn't change the immorality of the action. There is also little evidence that these strikes make us any more safe. Benghazi happened with the drone strikes taking place. Something more surgical might be more effective.
    By all means, let's stop drone strikes because they aren't perfect. And while we're at it, let's get rid of police because in spite of all of them, crimes still happen! Nothing like making perfect the enemy of the good.
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I think there's a difference. If you're going to invade a nation you haven't declared war on for the sole and express purpose of an extrajudicial execution, it seems to me like you should have some skin in the game. Using an unmanned robot doesn't qualify as skin.
    As long as it's not your 'skin', right? Not that that would ever be a possibility.
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