View Poll Results: Are spy/assassinatin drones morally acceptable?

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  • Yes

    29 33.72%
  • No

    34 39.53%
  • Yes, with explanation

    20 23.26%
  • No or undecided with explanation

    3 3.49%
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Thread: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

  1. #51
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    Boo Radley's Avatar
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    It is as accurate as can be gotten in 2013.
    Again, I didn't say it wasn't. I said it wasn't accurate enough for civilian lives.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #52
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, I didn't say it wasn't. I said it wasn't accurate enough for civilian lives.
    Well then, it would seem it is impossible to wage war with air power then. Is that accurate?

  3. #53
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Well then, it would seem it is impossible to wage war with air power then. Is that accurate?
    Not in this setting. Currently we face civilian populations with no state army. Merely bombing a village in hope of getting one or several bad guys is too costly. Not near accurate enough.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #54
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    1. The 'rest of the world' is an overly broad category, but the formation of negative opinions on US policy is inevitable almost regardless of what kind of action we take. Especially from other Western and developed circles where such agitation is popular but ultimately harmless. And that's what it really is: harmless. We are the hegemon and we attract reflexively negative sentiment, but it does not really impact our ability to act or our station in the world. Especially since we reap the advantage of being a democratic leader, with the capacity to hit popular reset with every new administration.

    2. They aren't 'needless' they are the cost of waging war, a war that is in fact moral, just, and necessary. Aside from being a direct, vocal, and proven threat and enemy of the United States and our allies, these militants and terrorists are the most regressive enemies of civilization and modernity. In the name of the most basic liberal and internationalist obligations that I believe we should hold ourselves to we should be suppressing these people. In the name of everything from democracy to feminism to security. Moreover much of the world see's drones and our activities in the way that you describe, because people like you in the West insist on describing it that way.

    3. The point is relevant since drone strikes primarily take place in NWFP, Waziristan, Swat, etc. areas that previously were subject to major Pakistani military offensives. Drone strikes even in isolation have inflicted very few civilian fatalities, but when related to the kind of violence these regions have seen it is positively minuscule.

    3.
    Ever tried to get in the middle of a family fight that wasn't your family? We are outsiders in a centuries old family fight. it doesn't matter if 200 civilians die in THEIR fights, it is a whole 'nother matter when we kill a dozen or so civilians with a strike from nowhere, deep in another nation.

    How the rest of the world see drone strikes doesn't rest on people like me saying our opinion, don't be silly. let's not try and claim we are supporting anything but our interest in this. Our 'allies' in the Middle East could givachit about women's rights or even democracy. You REALLY think Afghanistan wants equal rights for women? Democracy? No they see their warlord/tribal system as democratic enough.

    I don't know if you have been paying attention but the 'strike zone' for drones is covering alot more of the Muslim World than Pakistan- which FYI is our supposed ally and has protested time and time again over the strikes. But the strikes are now spreading across the Arabian peninsula, far from the 'warzone' of Afghanistan. We don't see us the way the rest of the world sees us. Arrogant and callous when it comes to other civilians that makes the assassinated leaders martyrs and the idea gains traction.

    It isn't a body count, it is an idea.

    Now the war on terror is floundering. We hold some for trial, some are actual combatants and some as 'terrorists' we kill in whatever land we can find them. this is a war that isn't a war, an anti-terrorism campaign that uses terrorism and assassination...

    I can't help but feel we are losing our way mainly because we can have our way with little regard to what used to guide us.

  5. #55
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    You have no idea whether the amount of collateral damage is 'ridiculous' or not. If you want to take a look at 'ridiculous' collateral damage, look at any German or Japanese city after World War II. That's collateral damage.
    So comparing it to something worse makes it ok? In WWII we didn't have smart bombs or drones, we just hoped for the best. It was also a total war. This is using highly precise equipment to target a single human being, but destroy a whole block, all in a country we're not at war with. Women and children get killed in significant numbers very frequently in these strikes. But hey, wouldn't want to rain on your 'Murica bald-eagle petting parade.

    If someone had a beef with you, bust decided they wanted to kill all of your family and neighbors along with you, would you take comfort in knowing worse things in human history have taken place? Or would you recognize an atrocity?
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 02-04-13 at 04:11 AM.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    The drones must only be used on war, on combatants. And I mean actual war, not police actions. Assasination of random individuals, without a fair trial, who are only suspected of being terrorists but not charged with it, is both legally and morally wrong.

  7. #57
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    And who gets to decide who's a terrorist and who isn't? The CIA? The President? So they have "intel" from a "reliable source" that Akhmed McTerrorist is on Mohammed Lane. That means they should be able to destroy Mohammed Lane?

    The amount of collateral damage is ridiculous, and there is usually no other proof that someone is a terrorist other than a bureacrat said he was. I'm sorry, I can't stand behind executions with zero trials or where no evidence is presented.
    I'm sorry dude, but this statement is..... ignorant. It's not bad on you, but it's just that you have no idea what goes in to the targeting cycle. Unless a target is a TST (or, in some AOR's, you're in a TIC), you're running targeting off of your ATO, and you don't get an ETF approved unless it has a CDE call on it, and 5HIGH goes up to either the AOR CG, SECDEF, or POTUS, depending on the ROE in place. And in order to get put on JPEL it's a much more extensive process than "some bureaucrat" or "some source" said. You want MS/MD confirmation, or your trash get's kicked right back to you with a "why did you waste our time, a$$hole" message attached.


    Now. If you didn't fully understand the above paragraph.... maybe you should stop to think about that for a second .


    Think about it, do you really think that we are sending hugely expensive drones to drop expensive bombs in Pakistan when we could be using them elsewhere on a whim or something so low-level as you describe? And think of the drones you have seen - have you ever seen them with the 2,000 pounders?

  8. #58
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So comparing it to something worse makes it ok? In WWII we didn't have smart bombs or drones, we just hoped for the best. It was also a total war. This is using highly precise equipment to target a single human being, but destroy a whole block, all in a country we're not at war with. Women and children get killed in significant numbers very frequently in these strikes. But hey, wouldn't want to rain on your 'Murica bald-eagle petting parade.

    If someone had a beef with you, bust decided they wanted to kill all of your family and neighbors along with you, would you take comfort in knowing worse things in human history have taken place? Or would you recognize an atrocity?
    The MQ-1 Predator and MQ-9 Reaper Drones carry the AGM-114 Hellfire Missile, dude. Destroying city blocks is.... well, let's just say it's not on the options menu . You can hit the front end of a car and watch in angry frustration as the guy in the back gets out and starts running away. Someone has sold you the nutter end of the libertarian anti-defense spiel, similar to whomever it was a while back (I think it was you) who sold you on the theory that the nearby presence of a MEU meant that we were getting ready to possibly invade Libya.

    And Wiggen is right - the extraordinary thing about collateral damage in this fight is how little there is of it. Frankly, the ROE's we have are ridiculously restrictive, to the point where we are losing our own lives over them.

  9. #59
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, I didn't say it wasn't. I said it wasn't accurate enough for civilian lives.
    What a fascinating claim. Can you back that up with the relevant JMEM data?

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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Maybe those "Leftists" aren't interested in having that conversation with someone so interested in how fast "the Arabs" are killing each other.


    I'm not talking about a conversation.

    There has been an ongoing cry from the Left about the injustice of the imprisonment of terrorists in Gitmo without due process.

    It seems that assassinating the terrorists with no possibility of judicial review ever is a tad more final and a tad less in keeping with the notion of rehabilitation held so dear by those who have no skin in the game.

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