View Poll Results: Are spy/assassinatin drones morally acceptable?

Voters
86. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    29 33.72%
  • No

    34 39.53%
  • Yes, with explanation

    20 23.26%
  • No or undecided with explanation

    3 3.49%
Page 28 of 34 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 280 of 331

Thread: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

  1. #271
    Guru
    the_recruit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,178

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure how you measure widespread,
    It's not my observation, don't take my word for it.

    The Drone Blowback Fallacy | Foreign Affairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    or how we KNOW how effective they really are. Didn't we start with the difficult if measuring that?
    Know is a strong word that rarely applies to real life. But the most reliable, comprehensive data we have available shows that the strikes are very accurate.

    The Year of the Drone | NewAmerica.net

    Obama's Covert War in Yemen | Drone Strikes in Yemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I suspect we create more terrorist, more fighting against us than we kill. Nit sure we can measure that either.
    And what data are you basing that on? Unsupported preconceived notions and bias, I would guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But force has been used for a long, long time in these things, and I think we can say with less than stellar results.
    I find broad generalizations like that to be a terrible basis for policy. I think such generalizations are for lazy, poorly informed people who want a one-size-fits-all answer to the world's many, complicated problems. It's not that simple or easy.

  2. #272
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    It's not my observation, don't take my word for it.

    The Drone Blowback Fallacy | Foreign Affairs



    Know is a strong word that rarely applies to real life. But the most reliable, comprehensive data we have available shows that the strikes are very accurate.

    The Year of the Drone | NewAmerica.net

    Obama's Covert War in Yemen | Drone Strikes in Yemen



    And what data are you basing that on? Unsupported preconceived notions and bias, I would guess.



    I find broad generalizations like that to be a terrible basis for policy. I think such generalizations are for lazy, poorly informed people who want a one-size-fits-all answer to the world's many, complicated problems. It's not that simple or easy.
    Taking anyone's word s often tricky:

    Although its proponents promote drone warfare as more precise and effective than traditional counterterror measures, the death toll from drone attacks in Pakistan since 2004 hovers imprecisely between 1,500 and 2,500 people.3 The public is routinely assured that a high percentage of those extrajudicially killed are militants, but victims are often unnamed and deaths rarely investigated.4 The few successful drone attacks on high-profile targets seem to have mobilized existing networks of followers to conduct symbolic revenge attacks of comparable magnitude, like the December 2009 Khost bombing, which sought to avenge the drone killing of Beitullah Mehsud in Waziristan earlier that year. By extension, non-militants victimized by drone attacks directly or indirectly far outnumber targeted militants. Thus, a stream of new adversaries is produced in what is called the "accidental guerrilla" phenomenon.5

    (Snip)

    By the same token, the ongoing ambivalence of the Pakistani civilian and military leadership on the topic of U.S. drone strikes has fanned the flames of popular discontent in the country's fragile political system, revealing the infrastructure of contradictions in the roles of its military-intelligence sectors that simultaneously work with the United States and promote militant organizations. All these forms of blowback — the unintended consequences of policies not subjected to the scrutiny of the American public — complicate U.S. policy in the region and should be considered before drone warfare is expanded into the Arabian Peninsula and Africa.6

    Middle East Policy Council | Drone Warfare: Blowback from the New American Way of War

    However we can use a certain amount of logic that would support that dropping bombs in an area populated by civilians that there would be civilian causalities. It would also stand to reason that these deaths would result in some blowback, the only real question being how much.

    And yes, know is a string word, but a word we must reasonably confront. What do we know and what don't we know, and what can we logically conclude. I reach a far amount base on the type of logic I assert above, often with information like I lined as evidence.

    And generalizations, or a better word, history, can inform us. We are fatten asked to learn from history.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #273
    Sage
    EagleAye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Last Seen
    03-28-13 @ 09:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,697

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Less likely. Certain killing for maybe killing isn't really a good trade off. Btw, you don't take a job because no one can criticize. Odd how some pick and choose where criticism is allowed.
    Well, "maybe killing" for someone who never has before, is not even remotely the same as "maybe killing" after killing masses before and planning to do so again.

    And sorry, but we aren't discussing the quality of someone's dish washing. We're discussing how lives may be saved, and you're questioning the morality of preventing one from killing many.
    Check out my Blog http://momusnews.wordpress.com/
    Sherry's Photography site: http://www.sheywicklundphotos.com/

  4. #274
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Well, "maybe killing" for someone who never has before, is not even remotely the same as "maybe killing" after killing masses before and planning to do so again.

    And sorry, but we aren't discussing the quality of someone's dish washing. We're discussing how lives may be saved, and you're questioning the morality of preventing one from killing many.
    There is no evidence I know of that lives are saved this way. In fact, evidence of when the British changed tactics is that less violence and more discrete efforts were more effective and not less. While there is some Chet puffing for high body counts, mother evidence doesn't support that this us a better solution overall.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #275
    Guru
    the_recruit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,178

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That article was written two years ago. It was written to serve as a warning against the widespread use of drones in Yemen.

    In the intervening two years, we have established a drone program in Yemen, and that warning has been shown to be unfounded. Which is exactly what I've stated and what my FA piece explains: we have not witnessed the sort of public outrage and blowback that we witnessed in Pakistan.

    There are also some glaring errors in your article, namely the author's leap of faith from correlation to causation (a leap of faith, which, oddly the author points out she shouldn't be making, but goes ahead and makes it anyway) that suicide attacks increased from 2004-2009 that serves as the primary evidence for her blowback theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    However we can use a certain amount of logic that would support that dropping bombs in an area populated by civilians that there would be civilian causalities. It would also stand to reason that these deaths would result in some blowback, the only real question being how much.
    In the case of Yemen, very little. For a variety of reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And yes, know is a string word, but a word we must reasonably confront. What do we know and what don't we know, and what can we logically conclude. I reach a far amount base on the type of logic I assert above, often with information like I lined as evidence.

    And generalizations, or a better word, history, can inform us. We are fatten asked to learn from history.
    History is absolutely critical for informing policy decisions. A more nuanced, comprehensive understanding of history, not one based on broad inaccurate generalizations.

  6. #276
    Sage
    samsmart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,316
    Blog Entries
    37

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    You originally contested the following statement I made:
    "If the government suspects a citizen is a terrorist then they must be brought through the justice system."

    My point was that a citizen can be apprehended by CIA or military and brought back to the US for prosecution. Never brought up FBI or local police forces.
    The CIA or military don't even have to apprehend suspects for prosecution.

    They could just try them in absentia.

    But the federal government doesn't even want to do that!
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  7. #277
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    That article was written two years ago. It was written to serve as a warning against the widespread use of drones in Yemen.

    In the intervening two years, we have established a drone program in Yemen, and that warning has been shown to be unfounded. Which is exactly what I've stated and what my FA piece explains: we have not witnessed the sort of public outrage and blowback that we witnessed in Pakistan.

    There are also some glaring errors in your article, namely the author's leap of faith from correlation to causation (a leap of faith, which, oddly the author points out she shouldn't be making, but goes ahead and makes it anyway) that suicide attacks increased from 2004-2009 that serves as the primary evidence for her blowback theory.



    In the case of Yemen, very little. For a variety of reasons.



    History is absolutely critical for informing policy decisions. A more nuanced, comprehensive understanding of history, not one based on broad inaccurate generalizations.
    Two years ago is hardly ancient. Nor do I believe it has been shown to be unfounded. And while leaps are common on both sides (too common sadly), you can't really claim a program is successful where there is an increase in what you're seeking to lessen.

    History shows in both the general and the specific that in tis art of he world violence and use of force has not led to less violence or a decrease in terrorism.

    Btw, not sure why you focus on Yemen. Do you believe it's the example that shows the whole? That it s not different elsewhere?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #278
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Btw, another count:

    Between June 2004 and September 2012, according to research by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, drone strikes killed between 2,562 and 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom between 474 and 881 were civilians, including 176 children.
    UN to examine UK and US drone strikes | World news | guardian.co.uk

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #279
    Sage
    EagleAye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Last Seen
    03-28-13 @ 09:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,697

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is no evidence I know of that lives are saved this way. In fact, evidence of when the British changed tactics is that less violence and more discrete efforts were more effective and not less. While there is some Chet puffing for high body counts, mother evidence doesn't support that this us a better solution overall.
    Exactly where, and when, were the British changing tactics to more discrete efforts in your example?
    Check out my Blog http://momusnews.wordpress.com/
    Sherry's Photography site: http://www.sheywicklundphotos.com/

  10. #280
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    Exactly where, and when, were the British changing tactics to more discrete efforts in your example?
    I linked long ago, but in dealing with the Irish problem.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

Page 28 of 34 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •