View Poll Results: Are spy/assassinatin drones morally acceptable?

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  • Yes

    29 33.72%
  • No

    34 39.53%
  • Yes, with explanation

    20 23.26%
  • No or undecided with explanation

    3 3.49%
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Thread: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

  1. #131
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Click on the links. They're very open and explicit about their methodology and criteria.
    I read the first one. Uses news reports and makes assumptions about words used. I'm not convinced with this source.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #132
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Click on the links. They're very open and explicit about their methodology and criteria.
    Unable to view the second source.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #133
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I read the first one. Uses news reports
    "The media outlets that New America relies upon are the three major international wire services (Associated Press, Reuters, Agence France Presse), the leading Pakistani newspapers (Dawn, Express Times, The News, The Daily Times), leading South Asian and Middle Eastern TV networks (Geo TV and Al Jazeera), and Western media outlets with extensive reporting capabilities in Pakistan (CNN, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, BBC, The Guardian, Telegraph)."

    Yes, that's right. They draw from a wide range of major international and regional news reports. What more reliable source would you suggest?


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    and makes assumptions about words used.
    Unfortunately that's necessary when you're attempting to condense a large quantity of news reports from different languages into 3 columns of numbers. Their algorithms for interpreting the reports are completely open to the public. Their assumptions sound reasonable. Is it perfect? Of course not. But in the real world we don't get perfect information. You'd be hard pressed to find a more thorough and reliable study on drone casualties in AfPak.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not convinced with this source.
    Of course you're not. You're convinced that our drone attacks are wantonly killing scores of innocent civilians and no amount of conflicting information will convince you otherwise. I challenge you to provide the data that has informed this assumption of yours.

  4. #134
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    "The media outlets that New America relies upon are the three major international wire services (Associated Press, Reuters, Agence France Presse), the leading Pakistani newspapers (Dawn, Express Times, The News, The Daily Times), leading South Asian and Middle Eastern TV networks (Geo TV and Al Jazeera), and Western media outlets with extensive reporting capabilities in Pakistan (CNN, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, BBC, The Guardian, Telegraph)."

    Yes, that's right. They draw from a wide range of major international and regional news reports. What more reliable source would you suggest?




    Unfortunately that's necessary when you're attempting to condense a large quantity of news reports from different languages into 3 columns of numbers. Their algorithms for interpreting the reports are completely open to the public. Their assumptions sound reasonable. Is it perfect? Of course not. But in the real world we don't get perfect information. You'd be hard pressed to find a more thorough and reliable study on drone casualties in AfPak.




    Of course you're not. You're convinced that our drone attacks are wantonly killing scores of innocent civilians and no amount of conflicting information will convince you otherwise. I challenge you to provide the data that has informed this assumption of yours.
    News sources have been depleted and don't have much out there doing this work. So, they are limited. The methodology also mentions, as I noted, assumptions about definition. And lastly, they admit a wide variance in reports.

    I don't argue they are wrong, and my argument isn't related at all to number. He many if one or the other has never been the issue.

    That said, we should be carful of accepting numbers out right.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #135
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    That works well for citizens that are within reach of the FBI. What about citizens in hostile regions on foreign soil?
    That's what I'm thinking about. The FBI is a strictly domestic agency. If a US citizen is (a terrorist and) in a foreign country, what are we supposed to do? Just say we're stuck, roll over, and give up?

    I think drones are a far superior and far more accurate way of hitting the target we want and limiting or even eliminating collateral casualties. Perhaps it's not the drones that should be changed but maybe the ordinance. If we want to hit a single guy, a Hellfire and quite a bit of overkill. The 250 lb SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) is an excellent answer. The actual warhead is only 50 pounds of explosive. Easily enough to take out one bad guy and greatly limit the damage to the surrounding area.
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  6. #136
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    News sources have been depleted and don't have much out there doing this work. So, they are limited. The methodology also mentions, as I noted, assumptions about definition. And lastly, they admit a wide variance in reports.

    I don't argue they are wrong, and my argument isn't related at all to number. He many if one or the other has never been the issue.

    That said, we should be carful of accepting numbers out right.
    Sure, it's wise to take everything with a grain of salt. But at the end of the day policy decisions need to be made. We have to make do with the imperfect information we have available. The New America Foundation's study is the most comprehensive, objective study that currently exists (publicly) on the topic.

  7. #137
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Sure, it's wise to take everything with a grain of salt. But at the end of the day policy decisions need to be made. We have to make do with the imperfect information we have available. The New America Foundation's study is the most comprehensive, objective study that currently exists (publicly) on the topic.
    There is nothing in the study related to decision making that speaks to morality.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #138
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    All you have to do is read. In the last post I spelled it fairly straightforward.
    No you didn't. You were asked:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    So then is it your argument that reality DOES, in fact, present US Forces or Decision Makers with decisions where no matter what they choose, non-combatants will die?

    You need to answer the question about whether or not these situations exist, and if the Answer is "No", then you need to answer:

    So is it your argument that the enemy does NOT use human shields?

    and if the answer is "Yes", then you need to answer:

    So when faced with a situation where non-comatants will die regardless of the action taken, is it the moral decision to take the action that will net reduce the number of deaths?
    and you responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    That is not what I've argued. Not remotely. I've argued that drone strikes, as we are running now, on civilian populations where we are at war with no country, in that context are immoral because they get more than the criminals they are after. You've tried to switch the argument to something else.
    Which in no way answered the question as to whether or not US decision makers ever faced decisions where action or inaction both led to the death of non-combatants, nor answered the follow-on questions about what they should do about it.

  9. #139
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No you didn't. You were asked:



    and you responded:



    Which in no way answered the question as to whether or not US decision makers ever faced decisions where action or inaction both led to the death of non-combatants, nor answered the follow-on questions about what they should do about it.
    Your question is a false question and not on point. I've noted that for you already. We don't have to be there. Those who attacked us could not have been stopped by drone strikes.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #140
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleAye View Post
    That's what I'm thinking about. The FBI is a strictly domestic agency. If a US citizen is (a terrorist and) in a foreign country, what are we supposed to do? Just say we're stuck, roll over, and give up?

    I think drones are a far superior and far more accurate way of hitting the target we want and limiting or even eliminating collateral casualties. Perhaps it's not the drones that should be changed but maybe the ordinance. If we want to hit a single guy, a Hellfire and quite a bit of overkill. The 250 lb SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) is an excellent answer. The actual warhead is only 50 pounds of explosive. Easily enough to take out one bad guy and greatly limit the damage to the surrounding area.
    You are speaking about reality on the ground to people who are not interested in it. Better to go with the Big Scary Image. Like Assault Rifles With 30-Magazine Clips, ill-informed opinion trumps attempts to provide background, relevant definitions, or facts.

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