View Poll Results: Are spy/assassinatin drones morally acceptable?

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  • Yes

    29 33.72%
  • No

    34 39.53%
  • Yes, with explanation

    20 23.26%
  • No or undecided with explanation

    3 3.49%
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Thread: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

  1. #91
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is easier to move forward with such things than it is to move back.
    Of course, as new technologies become available, government assumes control of them and claims to be able to use it any ol' way they want. If you are not diligent in controlling the government, you will lose it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Of course, as new technologies become available, government assumes control of them and claims to be able to use it any ol' way they want. If you are not diligent in controlling the government, you will lose it.
    On that we agree.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #93
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That speaks to accuracy. You can't just hit the bad guys. To be accurate enough in these situations (not nation against nation), that is the only way it would be morally acceptable.
    Quite the contrary - morally acceptable means that the gain is greater than the loss. For example, if terrorists hijack another set of planes and set them towards another set of towers, and we are looking at another potential 4,000 dead, then the proper response is to shoot those planes down and accept the loss of 400 lives over 4,000 lives. That's the morally acceptable thing to do. The morally unacceptable thing to do would be to turn to the families of those 4,000 and explain that their relatives died because life did not offer you the perfect solution you wanted.

    The Real World differs from your ivory tower and make-believe situations where terrorists realize that its' wrong to wear civilian clothes and use human shields and so they stop doing so. That's why Obama campaigned against, and then kept and expanded the Bush anti-terror infrastructure.

    As for accuracy, these systems are fully accurate, which is why you are avoiding that question by trying to turn it instead into a discussion on collateral damage. You made an ignorant comment, and now are backtracking. Which is fine - you can't be blamed for not knowing what you didn't know you didn't know.

  4. #94
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    No...I am basing this off the fact that more often than not...the Special Forces get the job done properly. They are the best trained military force in the world. They are smart, and calculated. They get in, get the job done, and get out with as little collateral damage as possible. Drones don't have that capability and kill anything within the area.
    That is simply not an accurate depiction of the capabilities of the MQ-1 and MQ-9. On the contrary, a mitigated Hellfire missile has a very tight effects radius.

    Let me put this in the context of a quick analogy:

    You are complaining that a guy is spraying hundreds of bullets indiscriminately into a crowd at the cyclic rate. However, the guy is armed with a circa 18th-century Brown Bess Musket. That's approximately the difference between a bombing run with the ability to "kill everything within the area" and "a drone with a hellfire".

  5. #95
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    Special forces can get in there and handle themselves. It is what they do best. They have the ability to handle any threat and spare innocent people. Drones don't have that capability.
    Both the bolded and the underlined are inaccurate. Ground troops will kill non-combatants as well, and have the additional problem that one is mounting an actual invasion of another nation. So two helicopters go down and now you have a platoon of SF guys surrounded in a TIC and you are calling in B-1 runs to protect them and actually laying waste to hundreds of people.

    Give me a drone mission over a Black Hawk Down any day of the week.
    Last edited by cpwill; 02-05-13 at 08:13 AM.

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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Just because you can find something else that is immoral doesn't change the immorality of the action. There is also little evidence that these strikes make us any more safe. Benghazi happened with the drone strikes taking place. Something more surgical might be more effective.
    a drone shooting a hellfire is about as surgical as you get, boo. There is literally nothing less damaging in the US arsenal with the capability to reach those distances. It is an itty-bitty little bomb - I've talked to guys in-country watching in frustrated disbelief as the missile strikes the front end of the vehicle and the dude get's out of the back and takes off running. The idea that our drones are laying waste to city blocks or somehow creating mass casualty events is one that I am surprised to find is apparently popular, but remains devoid of connection to what we are actually doing.

    And yes, nothing absent laying nuclear waste to the entire planet will completely stop the enemy. That is neither an argument for doing nothing nor an argument for nuclear warfare.

  7. #97
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quick Question: especially among those who voted no, is anyone else in this thread a trained weaponeer who has actually tasked and deployed drones in combat, developed target packages, made collateral damage estimations, and worked extensively inside the joint targeting cycle? Does anyone complaining about drone strikes in this thread know without googling what the JPEL is, or what the current NCV for ISAF is? Does anyone complaining about drone strikes in this thread actually know what they are talking about v what-they-dimly-remember-from-the-news?























































    yeah, somehow, I didn't think so.

  8. #98
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Drones are being used frequently for assassinations , attacks, spying, etc. I'm really seeking opinions on the drones used for assassinations.
    I think it's ok if there is strong evidence that the target is a terrorist, if there is a limited time in which the government can act to apprehend the person (e.g. because he lives in hiding and they only rarely get intelligence of where he will be at a certain time), and if they are located in a place that would make it impractical and unsafe to send in troops to capture the person.

    Obviously, those circumstances are going to exist far more often in a place like the middle east than in, say, Kansas.

    If the government has to fly into Pakistan or wherever each time they get this info, it's going to create a lot of problems and many more Americans will die. And the raids would probably be more often unsuccessful. Which means insiders would be less likely to come forward with information.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Quick Question: especially among those who voted no, is anyone else in this thread a trained weaponeer who has actually tasked and deployed drones in combat, developed target packages, made collateral damage estimations, and worked extensively inside the joint targeting cycle? Does anyone complaining about drone strikes in this thread know without googling what the JPEL is, or what the current NCV for ISAF is? Does anyone complaining about drone strikes in this thread actually know what they are talking about v what-they-dimly-remember-from-the-news?























































    yeah, somehow, I didn't think so.
    And that means we cannot comment? That means we cannot understand? We cannot infer? We cannot look at aggregated data? What's stupid is when people demand that personal experience be had in order to form coherent argument. It's usually just deflection away from a topic or argument. So let's stop with the stupid. I may not know the intricate and specific details of each and every drone plane, but I am more than capable of viewing the outcome and commenting on the use and morality of use. Regardless this is still my government and my military.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #100
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    Re: Assassination Drones are OK or morally questionable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It will be. Government expands power, it will be no different here.
    "EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans"

    EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans - Open Channel

    I believe that is exactly what you just said.

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