View Poll Results: Should the Government be in the Marriage Business?

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  • Yes, we need standards and structure or society will fall

    13 25.00%
  • No, I know what's best for me. Government should serve as a register only

    39 75.00%
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Thread: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

  1. #51
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No it wouldn't. Yours would open it up to local and state governments taking control of it. And if they didn't then your local pastor or some other "prominent" person would step in and try to force you to follow their way. And they need not use violence or anything illegal to do so. The only way that your idea would work is if every single person minded their own buisness. And that just simply is not going to ever happen.
    Do you file to get married at the Federal level? I'm not gonna rummage to find my old marriage license but, yeah, I am pretty sure we applied at the County clerks office. Perhaps I -- due to the fact I didn't think it necessary -- was mistaken when I said keep government out of the marriage business. Maybe I should have said keep ALL FORMS of government out.

    As it is now, and again, I didn't take the time to look but I'm pretty sure my Cook County Certificate of Marriage is valid, well, everywhere.

    Currently you have states running around saying gay marriage yes, gay marriage no, but with the implementation of my proposal, states wouldn't be able to deny or affirm anyone either.

    Perhaps my proposal is too simple to follow. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere, sometimes that which is easiest seems the most difficult to grasp. This isn't a case like say, weed getting legalized at the State level while still being illegal at the Federal, no this would be one of those laws that restrict government not its citizens.

    I think that is where we've gone wrong as a country. The Constitution isn't a document stating the rights of its citizens, no, when it was written it was a document outlining what restrictions should be placed on the government.

    We've fallen so far from grace that people nowadays are actually arguing against proposals that will make them more free, that will restrict what liberties our government can take with its authority...

    Unbelievable....

  2. #52
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Do you file to get married at the Federal level? I'm not gonna rummage to find my old marriage license but, yeah, I am pretty sure we applied at the County clerks office. Perhaps I -- due to the fact I didn't think it necessary -- was mistaken when I said keep government out of the marriage business. Maybe I should have said keep ALL FORMS of government out.
    Just because you file at the county clerks office does not mean that the federal level is also not given those papers. Just because you don't do it personally doesn't mean that it isn't done. How else do you think that the federal government has been able to deny giving gays the same rights that married couples are afforded? IE: inheritance rights when there is no will, visitation rights of a spouse in a hospital, power of attourney when your spouse is not able to decide for themselves...all of those are federally granted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    As it is now, and again, I didn't take the time to look but I'm pretty sure my Cook County Certificate of Marriage is valid, well, everywhere.
    And do you know why that is?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Currently you have states running around saying gay marriage yes, gay marriage no, but with the implementation of my proposal, states wouldn't be able to deny or affirm anyone either.
    Nor would they be able to enforce things like I listed above. Nor would they be able to stop some private citizen from legally harrassing you if they don't agree with who you married.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Perhaps my proposal is too simple to follow. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere, sometimes that which is easiest seems the most difficult to grasp. This isn't a case like say, weed getting legalized at the State level while still being illegal at the Federal, no this would be one of those laws that restrict government not its citizens.
    It has nothing to do with an easy concept being too difficult to grasp. But you are right that your proposal is too simple to follow. For the simple fact that the world is not black and white. It has a crap ton of different shades of grey. The very reason that the government is formed, a good one anyways, is to protect peoples rights. They cannot do this if you only allow them to fill out some papers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I think that is where we've gone wrong as a country. The Constitution isn't a document stating the rights of its citizens, no, when it was written it was a document outlining what restrictions should be placed on the government.
    It is also a document that states and implies the duties of the government. Part of that is the protection of peoples rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    We've fallen so far from grace that people nowadays are actually arguing against proposals that will make them more free, that will restrict what liberties our government can take with its authority...
    Yes we have. But not for the reasons that you apparently believe.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Just because you file at the county clerks office does not mean that the federal level is also not given those papers. Just because you don't do it personally doesn't mean that it isn't done. How else do you think that the federal government has been able to deny giving gays the same rights that married couples are afforded? IE: inheritance rights when there is no will, visitation rights of a spouse in a hospital, power of attourney when your spouse is not able to decide for themselves...all of those are federally granted.
    Alright, what you've just done is make a point of explaining back to me the point I was making. That being a Federal blanket over what the State and County do. What my proposal does is take away the Federal, State, County, Township, etc.. right to deny anything. Those same rights afforded married couples today will be available to all.

    What it seems is we have a difference of opinion in what a "Right" is. No government grants me my rights, I have them naturally. If you are being granted something from someone or something outside of your own personhood than it isn't a Right, it is a privilege.

    Using the government as a register is taking all of those "rights" and letting the government know whom I'm going to share them with. It turns the entire process into an administrative function. You're not being given anything, it is yours, inherently.



    And do you know why that is?
    Yes I do but I'm not gonna tell.....


    Nor would they be able to enforce things like I listed above. Nor would they be able to stop some private citizen from legally harrassing you if they don't agree with who you married.
    Of course they would, just like they enforce any other contract on record.
    Harrassment is illegal, no? Doesn't matter who it's being done to or why.


    It has nothing to do with an easy concept being too difficult to grasp. But you are right that your proposal is too simple to follow. For the simple fact that the world is not black and white. It has a crap ton of different shades of grey. The very reason that the government is formed, a good one anyways, is to protect peoples rights. They cannot do this if you only allow them to fill out some papers.
    I wasn't trying to be insulting, just sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees.

    The world can be the entire spectrum of the rainbow, contract laws already on the books can handle the workload, or if you need to add another one or two, no harm, but the important thing is that the ability of government to tell people how to live will be lessened just a little.



    It is also a document that states and implies the duties of the government. Part of that is the protection of peoples rights.
    Correct and in this case as we see it clearly isn't. It is infringing on them terribly.



    Yes we have. But not for the reasons that you apparently believe.
    Well, it's all subjective...
    Last edited by ChezC3; 02-03-13 at 10:45 AM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Regarding the federal vs. local registry issue.

    Consider marriage visas: we heterosexuals have no problem (the usual bureaucratic hassle substracted) bringing our partners to America. For homosexuals, there's simply no way to do it.

    In an ideal world, (the holy sacrament of) marriage would be a domain of churches, governments would use "civil unions for all" model - and there would be no restrictions on immigration at all, anyway.

    But in this sordidly real world, gay marriage seems to be the only feasible way to go - and its recognition on the federal level seems to be necessary.

  5. #55
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    This shouldn't be viewed as a sign that you are for or against gay marriage, polygamy, etc. Only whether or not the government should be the arbiter in moral decisions involving who or what is to be considered a suitable partner(s)
    There are some legitimate concerns regarding estates and children that I think would need to be addressed, but in the end I still vote that government should not be involved. Other than taxes I see no reason, and since I am also a "flat tax" advocate where everybody would pay the same percentage regarding any and all other considerations, that solves that.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  6. #56
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    There are some legitimate concerns regarding estates and children that I think would need to be addressed, but in the end I still vote that government should not be involved. Other than taxes I see no reason, and since I am also a "flat tax" advocate where everybody would pay the same percentage regarding any and all other considerations, that solves that.
    Of course those are legitimate concerns. They would be handled appropriately under contract law.

  7. #57
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Certainly in the form of setting certain age limitations.

  8. #58
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    [QUOTE=ChezC3;1061422157]

    Oh, so all this to teach me a lesson, huh? LOL and this was to do what I suuppose? I was using the terminology for distinction, nothing else.




    Splendid, you are able to choose for yourself your own identity not have it bequeathed upon you from up high. I've presented an argument that ends the entire issue, it just doesn't have the alterior agenda attached to it. What's in it for you is self evident.




    I don't know what you think you've shown but if you want to look at history, clearly the definition and purpose of marriage has been 1 man and 1 or multiple women forming social contracts so as to secure lineage. That was its function I won't stop you if you would like to think otherwise, have at it, but just know that mountains of anthropological evidence is available to prove you wrong. I won't be providing any of this evidence, no, no, fool's errands are for fools. I'm no fool and you can google just as easy as I can.

    What's further, the only mention of religion that I've presented to you I believe was that some people of religious claim take issue with same sex marriage. My method pulls their teeth leaving them only a bark with no bite.

    To say all I have is a claim one of which I haven't substanciated is a strawman. I've made no claim therefore nothing needs to be substantiated.




    and here's the onion... Governmental recognition. LOL. Why is there a need for outside validation? Whether it is Jack and Jill or Jack and Bill all the government needs to recognize is who gets to control the purse strings upon death or how the purse is split upon divorce. I mean really, you're coming close showing honesty of agenda but still are holding back, why?






    Oh you do, you're just not being honest as to the reason why. I won't repeat myself regarding the recognition schpeal, the answer is the same as above.




    I would ask why you have the overwhelming desire to be lorded over?

    The main and only pertinent reason advocates of gay marriage have is that they seek the same custodial and property rights as those who are freely allowed to marry today. Terminating the government's authority to dictate who can have these rights is the best solution.

    Of course there is the other agenda that goes unsettled, but again that also should reside outside the government's domain.
    Chez, you do realize that churches are legally allowed to not recognize marriages conducted outside their rules, don't you? I say this because a belief on your part that they are legally required to recognize other marriages is the only fathomable reason I can come up with for why you'd have any problem with the status quo (or for the status quo changing to allow gays the right to marry).
    Last edited by Cardinal; 02-03-13 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Of course those are legitimate concerns. They would be handled appropriately under contract law.
    You presume that everybody, bar none, would be responsible and draw up a contract.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #60
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Certainly in the form of setting certain age limitations.
    That would be pretty much my only law regarding marriage itself... a minimum age. Whatever the standard age of consent is for a given state.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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