View Poll Results: Should the Government be in the Marriage Business?

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  • Yes, we need standards and structure or society will fall

    13 25.00%
  • No, I know what's best for me. Government should serve as a register only

    39 75.00%
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Thread: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    No, I don't suppose you would. Because that old time tradition of clubbing your woman over the head and dragging her back to the cave is just as relevant to today's discussion as any I've seen... I can see where you might get confused.
    So you see then that old traditions can become irrelevant with time? That things change?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Ok, and what? The issue also could have been past resolved had the term "civil union" been allowed to have replaced the word "marriage".
    Except maybe I prefer "marriage" for myself, and not "civil union." You thus far haven't presented any argument for why I would get on board with your proposal. What's in it for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Marriage for some holds religious connotations. What's the matter -- don't want a complete seperation of church and state?
    This carries the assumption that marriage is the domain of the religious. As I've stated with my previous examples of the varying traditions of marriage, this has not by any definition consistently been the case. So far all you have is a claim that marriage is solely religious, one which you have not substantiated.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    By taking government completely out of the marriage business you don't have to worry about word magic. It's cut and dry. Everyone is equal because all you are doing is registering yourselves into a partnership of sorts to ensure hereditary rights and what not are protected.
    Government recognizing gay marriage would also solve the issue. On top of that, atheists and gays can still have marriage. More people win this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    It's naive to think I don't fully understand why you'd balk at the notion of everyone having full fledged legal protection and equal standing with all the trimmings as I've set the table.
    I don't balk at this at all. In fact, government recognizing gay marriage deals with that quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Turn a specific statement into a generality. Cute, but that won't make what I said wrong.
    Well, why would your automatic solution to a government doing something badly be to get government out of it? Sometimes the solution really is to just make government do that thing better, and as we've seen with an increasing number of states approving gay marriage this is clearly one of those situations.

  2. #42
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I never said it didn't. I said the poll should be viewed in a particular context. Meaning since the subject of gay marriage has brought to our attention a place where government should have no say, forget how you feel about polygamy or gay marriage, or whatever else and concentrate on whether or not you believe the government has a right to be the decision maker or should they merely be a custodian of records.

    Gay marriage has been the catalyst for the debate it doesn't mean that gay marriage has to be the debate.
    Marriage is a right. As such the Government should become involved to protect that right.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  3. #43
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Well, thank you for commenting. I don't know if I agree with your assessment, but thanks for the criticism none the less.
    "we need standards and structure or society will fall" this is what makes your poll partisan. It takes out any other reason to say "yes" and imposes your own view of what "yes" should be. Likewise the same applies to your option for "no". "I know what's best for me. Government should serve as a register only" There may well be other reasons to say "no" other than thinking that a person knows whats best for themselves, indeed they may want to say no period and completely leave out the "register only" part.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  4. #44
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Speaking of which, "traditional marriage" is actually between a man and a woman of the same race, religion, nationality, and tribe or clan. We've managed over the years to whittle away the legal barriers to most of those (though attitudes of scorn and rejection may still echo in some recalcitrant quarters), but there is at least one more still to go.
    I mean, if we really care that much about tradition, all christian churches should be prohibited from granting marriages and anybody who wants to get married should have to trek to Mesopotamia and be married by a priest of Nanna.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  5. #45
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    So you see then that old traditions can become irrelevant with time? That things change?
    Oh, so all this to teach me a lesson, huh? LOL and this was to do what I suuppose? I was using the terminology for distinction, nothing else.


    Except maybe I prefer "marriage" for myself, and not "civil union." You thus far haven't presented any argument for why I would get on board with your proposal. What's in it for me?
    Splendid, you are able to choose for yourself your own identity not have it bequeathed upon you from up high. I've presented an argument that ends the entire issue, it just doesn't have the alterior agenda attached to it. What's in it for you is self evident.


    This carries the assumption that marriage is the domain of the religious. As I've stated with my previous examples of the varying traditions of marriage, this has not by any definition consistently been the case. So far all you have is a claim that marriage is solely religious, one which you have not substantiated.
    I don't know what you think you've shown but if you want to look at history, clearly the definition and purpose of marriage has been 1 man and 1 or multiple women forming social contracts so as to secure lineage. That was its function I won't stop you if you would like to think otherwise, have at it, but just know that mountains of anthropological evidence is available to prove you wrong. I won't be providing any of this evidence, no, no, fool's errands are for fools. I'm no fool and you can google just as easy as I can.

    What's further, the only mention of religion that I've presented to you I believe was that some people of religious claim take issue with same sex marriage. My method pulls their teeth leaving them only a bark with no bite.

    To say all I have is a claim one of which I haven't substanciated is a strawman. I've made no claim therefore nothing needs to be substantiated.


    Government recognizing gay marriage would also solve the issue. On top of that, atheists and gays can still have marriage. More people win this way.
    and here's the onion... Governmental recognition. LOL. Why is there a need for outside validation? Whether it is Jack and Jill or Jack and Bill all the government needs to recognize is who gets to control the purse strings upon death or how the purse is split upon divorce. I mean really, you're coming close showing honesty of agenda but still are holding back, why?




    I don't balk at this at all. In fact, government recognizing gay marriage deals with that quite well.
    Oh you do, you're just not being honest as to the reason why. I won't repeat myself regarding the recognition schpeal, the answer is the same as above.


    Well, why would your automatic solution to a government doing something badly be to get government out of it? Sometimes the solution really is to just make government do that thing better, and as we've seen with an increasing number of states approving gay marriage this is clearly one of those situations.[/QUOTE
    I would ask why you have the overwhelming desire to be lorded over?

    The main and only pertinent reason advocates of gay marriage have is that they seek the same custodial and property rights as those who are freely allowed to marry today. Terminating the government's authority to dictate who can have these rights is the best solution.

    Of course there is the other agenda that goes unsettled, but again that also should reside outside the government's domain.

  6. #46
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    "we need standards and structure or society will fall" this is what makes your poll partisan. It takes out any other reason to say "yes" and imposes your own view of what "yes" should be. Likewise the same applies to your option for "no". "I know what's best for me. Government should serve as a register only" There may well be other reasons to say "no" other than thinking that a person knows whats best for themselves, indeed they may want to say no period and completely leave out the "register only" part.
    and you found taking the time to critique the poll was a better way of doing things rather than just vote and comment on that other reason?


    Thanks again for your input.

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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Marriage is a right. As such the Government should become involved to protect that right.
    My way would protect it. Where it counts. The right also would be protected from the government by removing its authority to decide whom can form the social contract.

  8. #48
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    I don't understand why being married entitles one to a tax break. I would be totally on board with gay marriage if it weren't for the government giving a benefit based on one's promises of monogamy. Why does saying "I promise not to bang anybody else" give someone tax benefits? I don't find anything wrong with being gay, but letting the government "allow" this group or that group to do whatever just empowers the government even more. Be gay. Be monogamous. Have a religious ceremony. I don't care. But I don't think that entitles one to anything other than hospital visitation and survivor's benefits (which can be taken care of with a simple power of attorney).
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 02-03-13 at 02:47 AM.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
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  9. #49
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    and you found taking the time to critique the poll was a better way of doing things rather than just vote and comment on that other reason?
    You did say that you were not sure how your poll was partisan right? Since you said you didn't know I figured that it was my duty to show you so as to help you avoid such mistakes in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Thanks again for your input.
    You're welcome.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  10. #50
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    Re: Should The Government Be In The Marriage Business?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    My way would protect it. Where it counts. The right also would be protected from the government by removing its authority to decide whom can form the social contract.
    No it wouldn't. Yours would open it up to local and state governments taking control of it. And if they didn't then your local pastor or some other "prominent" person would step in and try to force you to follow their way. And they need not use violence or anything illegal to do so. The only way that your idea would work is if every single person minded their own buisness. And that just simply is not going to ever happen.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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