View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with dumping the constitution

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Thread: Should we get rid of the constitution

  1. #51
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    It depends on who you're speaking of. There wasn't this uniform voice of what exactly government should look like. From day one there were competing visions on the power of the different branches.
    That is why I'm interested in those where the ideas written originated. If we do this its pretty clear for example the commerce clause is abused heavily.

    This is a problem I have....Libertarians/Small government types project their beliefs onto the founders.
    No, I don't. What I want is not in the paper. For example, I would have never added eminent domain at all and if I had my way I would take it out. I also would have never given the states the amount of power that was given, but would have limited them to only a few functions as well.

    From day 1 there were battles between the size and strength of government...and ultimately...a lot of proponents of smaller government expanded the power of the federal government while in office.

    Also...the Constitution does no such thing. It's vague and left open to interpretation for a reason. I'd like to point out that as early as Jefferson the Government led by a small government guy bought a whole lotta land and divvied it up and that power is not in the constitution if you take a literal view.
    I never claimed the founders even stuck to what is written. I know for fact Madison, Jefferson, Adams and Washington all failed to follow what is written. The only one I'm letting off the hook even a little bit is Washington since he admitted it. It's also not that vague to excuse the expansions people like you support. For example, we both know there is no way welfare falls under any clause for the federal government.

  2. #52
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I see no reason why a full update of the constitution would be a bad thing. A great deal of supreme court common law could be folded into the document itself and put into black letter law, rather than relying on controlling cases. Contentious issues like the reach of the commerce clause could be settled and put into the constitution. Rights that are flimsier in our present law, like privacy, could be afforded the strength of a full amendment. We could have a version that doesn't contain language of slavery, even though it's officially crossed out now. The core principals, however, wouldn't change. The character of this country has not dramatically altered. We still believe in the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We still believe in limited government. We still believe in checks and balances, delegation of powers, representative democracy, equal treatment under the law, and more. The ideals of the constitution are certainly still the core ideals of the nation, but the form of the constitution is outdated and could use an update.
    Because it would take 10 years and $10B and we would end up with something that would never be ratified.

  3. #53
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation. The Constitution had one purpose...to expand Federal powers. If the people of the United States wanted some loose federation of states they wouldn't of junked the Articles of Confederation.

    Also...lets be honest here....the Federalist papers were just Madison and Hamilton convincing individuals to junk the Articles of Confederation and adopt a stronger Federal authority.
    The question this poll ask is are you in favor of dumping the constitution. You are changing the subject a bit with should the constitution ever have been enacted to replace the Articles of Confederation. This is a great subject and deserves a thread of its own and if you start one I will be more than happy to participate. Seriously I am not avoiding the issue here, it is a subject that is well worth discussing but I have to get to work. I'll check in on my lunch break and see where you have gone with this, we may not disagree quite as much as you think.

  4. #54
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I see no reason why a full update of the constitution would be a bad thing. A great deal of supreme court common law could be folded into the document itself and put into black letter law, rather than relying on controlling cases. Contentious issues like the reach of the commerce clause could be settled and put into the constitution.
    No way would I make the government stronger as the default position. If we are going to rewrite the constitution the only way I will agree is if we make it smaller than it was originally.

    Rights that are flimsier in our present law, like privacy, could be afforded the strength of a full amendment.
    I'm not in favor of putting rights in amendments again. In fact, I don't support amendments at all. They were a mistake to ever do in the first place. There should be an established understanding of what rights are and that is it. None of this nonsense where we reveal the obvious that speech is protected. It's obviously protected by the foundation set out. As for privacy, yes its protected by the foundation they set out. Its a bit obvious. There is no need for an amendment on the matter.
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-31-13 at 12:42 PM.

  5. #55
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is why I'm interested in those where the ideas written originated. If we do this its pretty clear for example the commerce clause is abused heavily.
    I think the main lesson learned is that the Constitution is a guiding document but for the most part the founders did what was required in order to effectively govern the country.

    As for the Commerce Clause I just disagree. The use of the Commerce Clause is no different than other justifications used in interpretating the document by the Founders. Why supposedly should we be constrained to some literal reading of the Constitution when the Founders themselves weren't?

    No, I don't. What I want is not in the paper. For example, I would have never added eminent domain at all and if I had my way I would take it out. I also would have never given the states the amount of power that was given, but would have limited them to only a few functions as well.
    That's fine...as long as you argue on the merits of your actual views. The only reson I pointe to Libertarians and small government types is they consistently (not all) point to "The Founders" and use that as some argument in their views. They act like their view is "moral" because it's based on tradition but that's just not the case. It's just policies they want and if you can't make a coherent strong argument for those views outside of some argument that "that's how it's suppose to be" then the policies may just be...well bad policies.

    I never claimed the founders even stuck to what is written. I know for fact Madison, Jefferson, Adams and Washington all failed follow what is written. The only one I'm letting off the hook even a little bit is Washington since he admitted it. It's also not that vague to excuse the expansions people like you support. For example, we both know there is no way welfare falls under any clause for the federal government.
    Well there was no reason to even believe there was a need for massive welfare programs in a pre-industrialized substence farming nation. Things change...sticking to a literal Constitution I would argue is by far the BEST! way to ensure it's ripped up and re-written because it becomes a document that doesn't meet the needs of running a large modern country.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The question this poll ask is are you in favor of dumping the constitution. You are changing the subject a bit with should the constitution ever have been enacted to replace the Articles of Confederation. This is a great subject and deserves a thread of its own and if you start one I will be more than happy to participate. Seriously I am not avoiding the issue here, it is a subject that is well worth discussing but I have to get to work. I'll check in on my lunch break and see where you have gone with this, we may not disagree quite as much as you think.
    Very true...I apologize...I do think the "Sanctity" of the Constitution needs to be dispelled and is important to the idea of whether or not it's ok to rewrite the Constitution. The Founders and the Constitution seem to of turned into some mythic document that can never be improved.

    I agree though...it's getting off topic.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  7. #57
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Because it would take 10 years and $10B and we would end up with something that would never be ratified.
    Amendments, I'm okay with. A new Constitutional Convention scares me especially in the current political culture that is so divided and filled with animosity toward fellow Americans of opposing parties.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  8. #58
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I think the main lesson learned is that the Constitution is a guiding document but for the most part the founders did what was required in order to effectively govern the country.
    If you don't allow it to lead you its not really guiding anything.

    As for the Commerce Clause I just disagree. The use of the Commerce Clause is no different than other justifications used in interpretating the document by the Founders. Why supposedly should we be constrained to some literal reading of the Constitution when the Founders themselves weren't?
    I didn't say literally reading the constitution, but understand where the ideas come from and why they are listed as powers.

    That's fine...as long as you argue on the merits of your actual views. The only reson I pointe to Libertarians and small government types is they consistently (not all) point to "The Founders" and use that as some argument in their views. They act like their view is "moral" because it's based on tradition but that's just not the case. It's just policies they want and if you can't make a coherent strong argument for those views outside of some argument that "that's how it's suppose to be" then the policies may just be...well bad policies.
    Since we are using constitutional arguments what do you want us to do?

    Well there was no reason to even believe there was a need for massive welfare programs in a pre-industrialized substence farming nation. Things change...sticking to a literal Constitution I would argue is by far the BEST! way to ensure it's ripped up and re-written because it becomes a document that doesn't meet the needs of running a large modern country.
    You don't need a welfare system in modern society. In fact, while its creates growth and demand both are undesirable since it will only rise prices and lower wages. If you desire to raise profits and create disparity though it does a good job.

  9. #59
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Amendments, I'm okay with. A new Constitutional Convention scares me especially in the current political culture that is so divided and filled with animosity toward fellow Americans of opposing parties.
    I suspect that a real Constitutional Convention would have to result in some sort of division of the US in order to reach a consensus. In case you have not noticed the Blue people who mock the Red people are the ones who totally freak out when there is a discussion of that.

  10. #60
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    As for the question, I will have to go with no. While I hate how it has turned out and I don't like some of the original parts a large part of the population wants a massive government and frankly I don't want them to have any sort of influence on writing a new constitution.

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