View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with dumping the constitution

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    4 6.67%
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Thread: Should we get rid of the constitution

  1. #41
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    You could not be more wrong.
    I am so, so disappointed with our education system right now. Seriously, don't take my word on it. Learn something. Read the anti-federalist papers, or a history book.

    This is- sorry, should be- common knowledge. I learned this **** in 5th grade. We're ****ed as a nation if people do not know the history of the goddamned country. Frankly, it's downright offensive that people decide to have political opinions about that document whilst they remain that deplorably ignorant of the ****ing thing. It's an utter disgrace.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    The Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation. The Constitution had one purpose...to expand Federal powers. If the people of the United States wanted some loose federation of states they wouldn't of junked the Articles of Confederation.
    That is a rather weak argument for a strong federal government. They wanted stronger than they had in the Articles, but they didn't want the federal government to be the key gear in the machine. The constitution still establishes a weak federal government with only a short list of powers.

  3. #43
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    We shouldn't dump the Constitution but I've always thought that we ought to keep it up to date through a system better than amending it. Basically, amendments today are almost impossible to achieve so no one bothers. That leaves the Constitution full of language and ideas that simply are not applicable today, it forces the Supreme Court into the position of deciding how a document written 237 years ago applies to the modern world when, in reality, it probably doesn't. However, the Supreme Court doesn't have the ability to simply say "this no longer applies", they have to keep hitting it with a hammer until it is made to apply, even if the founding fathers would have had no clue.

    We're getting to the point where some parts of the Constitution are just absurdly abused.
    Why do people keep saying this? Why wouldn't the constitution work in the modern world in the way it was written? Why do you need an expansion of government today outside those powers? Why isn't power scope timeless?

  4. #44
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Yes, we should get rid of the constitution. We should dance around naked while we burn the sucker and then piss on the ashes to put out the flame. Immediately after doing so, we should ransack the White house, loot the houses of all the rich politicians, forcibly redistribute all wealth until we can all afford to party and then draft a new manifesto eliminating all states rights and restructuring all human interaction according to the dictates of a politburo carefully screened for idealogical purity.
    Power to the people, dude!


    well, I just hope that gives him what he wants
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  5. #45
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is a rather weak argument for a strong federal government. They wanted stronger than they had in the Articles, but they didn't want the federal government to be the key gear in the machine. The constitution still establishes a weak federal government with only a short list of powers.
    The point is that the anti-federalists were right about the constitution granting too much authority. The issues today are no different than that which they brought up before it was even ratified. They envisioned it being used exactly as it has been because of the fact that the potential was there from the very start. The split between Hamilton and Madison, who were both proponents of ratification, was based upon the same types of arguments had today. Madison miscalculated by assuming that it would not be used the way that the anti-federalists feared. Our modern political spectrum is a uniquely Hamiltonian one, because both republicans and democrats have accepted his principles of expanding the document in different ways, often without even realizing it.

    The document allows for the creation of too strong of a federal authority.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    I agree with what ttwtt said here.



    I dislike this idea. It would lead to small states having almost no impact on the election. I could support proportional giving of electoral votes, or electoral votes given on congressional district, but only after we have some nonpartisan manner of redistricting.


    The Constitution has within it provisions for modification to adjust with the times. I think it could use a couple of amendments:

    1. Give the POTUS the line item veto however allow line item expenditures to be overturn by the same number of votes the initial bill passed by, still keeping the budget as congress' baby.
    I agree with what ttwtt said here.

    And this.



    I can't agree with this, until we have some nonpartisan way of redistricting. Gerrymandering would control the House and the Senate.



    I don't see a need for this.



    I'd be okay with this.



    I'm not sure how enforceable that would be.

    I dislike this idea (eliminating the Electoral College). It would lead to small states having almost no impact on the election.

    The present system leaves a lot of PEOPLE with no impact on the election. Democrats living in so-called red states feel like voting for President is a waste of time. I have a Democrat friend who lives in Atlanta who said as much to me last fall. Conversely, the millions of conservatives in California and New York have effectively no say in the presidential elections.


    1. Give the POTUS the line item veto however allow line item expenditures to be overturn by the same number of votes the initial bill passed by, still keeping the budget as congress' baby.
    I agree with what ttwtt said here.
    Veto overrides require more votes, for good reason. The POTUS should NEVER be given that much power. If a budget passed by 51%, and the president is of the majority party, then any "compromise" items, added by the minority party, will be removed making the budget a mere formality.



    I happen to think the deficit is a big problem in America. Pork barrel spending by Congressmen is a problem. I see giving the POTUS the authority to save the taxpayers some of their money by refusing to spend it (but with congressional approval), is only a good thing. All this would do is make congress vote for spending items on their own merit and end the manipulation of other Congressmen and the President forcing them to agree to blow money bees wax research and bridges to nowhere by attaching them to bills that fund food and water for our troops.

    I'm kind of confused about ttwtt's answer. He said he preferred keeping the veto override at 2/3s vote including for my suggestion of just line item vetoes, which gives congress more power to overturn line item vetoes but then said President shouldn't have that kind of power (to have his line-item vetoes overturned with a simple majority). That's not giving power to the President, its restricting it. The whole idea is to give the President the authority to tell congress not to attach spotted owl taxidermy classes in Omaha to the ability to buy bullet proof vests for our troops.

    I honestly wonder if the conservatives who oppose the line item veto actually oppose the line item veto or are they in reality they simply oppose the current President being short-sighted and strongly tribal in their political positions.

    http://articles.philly.com/1987-08-2...deral-spending
    Last edited by Smeagol; 01-31-13 at 12:22 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is a rather weak argument for a strong federal government. They wanted stronger than they had in the Articles, but they didn't want the federal government to be the key gear in the machine. The constitution still establishes a weak federal government with only a short list of powers.
    It depends on who you're speaking of. There wasn't this uniform voice of what exactly government should look like. From day one there were competing visions on the power of the different branches.

    This is a problem I have....Libertarians/Small government types project their beliefs onto the founders.

    From day 1 there were battles between the size and strength of government...and ultimately...a lot of proponents of smaller government expanded the power of the federal government while in office.

    Also...the Constitution does no such thing. It's vague and left open to interpretation for a reason. I'd like to point out that as early as Jefferson the Government led by a small government guy bought a whole lotta land and divvied it up and that power is not in the constitution if you take a literal view.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    I see no reason why a full update of the constitution would be a bad thing. A great deal of supreme court common law could be folded into the document itself and put into black letter law, rather than relying on controlling cases. Contentious issues like the reach of the commerce clause could be settled and put into the constitution. Rights that are flimsier in our present law, like privacy, could be afforded the strength of a full amendment. We could have a version that doesn't contain language of slavery, even though it's officially crossed out now. The core principals, however, wouldn't change. The character of this country has not dramatically altered. We still believe in the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We still believe in limited government. We still believe in checks and balances, delegation of powers, representative democracy, equal treatment under the law, and more. The ideals of the constitution are certainly still the core ideals of the nation, but the form of the constitution is outdated and could use an update.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I'd like to point out that as early as Jefferson the Government led by a small government guy bought a whole lotta land and divvied it up and that power is not in the constitution if you take a literal view.
    Lots of people are all about limiting other people's authority, not necessarily their own. I think Jefferson was one of those people.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Should we get rid of the constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Lots of people are all about limiting other people's authority, not necessarily their own. I think Jefferson was one of those people.
    Very true...also Madison ended up reinstituting the National Bank when he realized he needed to raise funds for war against England.

    That's what gets me with this idea that "The Founders" were some monolithic anti-government force. They must of skipped their history lessons that the first divisions were between the founders based on federalist and anti-federalist views of America..
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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