View Poll Results: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

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Thread: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

  1. #51
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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Yes they should. Of course the law makes it so easy to divorce now it's almost ridicules to get married. When my wife and I got married we made an agreement that divorce for other than adultery (and even then maybe) was out of the question. We have had to work very hard at our marriage. I think this is part of the problem. People seem to think you fall in love get married and live happily ever after. What a load of poop.
    Head of Nail, meet Hammer. Instant-Gratification, If It Feels Good Do It, and The Purpose Of Life Is To Seek Self-Expression. People today think that when the puppy love fades "well, it just didn't work out"; or when they fight "well, the only answer to us fighting is to throw up our hands and quit". Utter bunk. My wife and I made the same oath ya'll did, and while it has sucked at times, you are right - the reward is so far and away more than worth it that you wonder at those who even stop to try to count the cost.

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Head of Nail, meet Hammer. Instant-Gratification, If It Feels Good Do It, and The Purpose Of Life Is To Seek Self-Expression. People today think that when the puppy love fades "well, it just didn't work out"; or when they fight "well, the only answer to us fighting is to throw up our hands and quit". Utter bunk. My wife and I made the same oath ya'll did, and while it has sucked at times, you are right - the reward is so far and away more than worth it that you wonder at those who even stop to try to count the cost.
    A husband can tell how successful he is as a husband by doing a simple test. Look into your wife's eyes. What you see there will tell you the whole story. Of course this works both ways.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    I know that the state provides incentives to people to use marriage as the gateway to reproduction, such as a different set of rights and material rewards; but for the sake of argument, let's put all that aside. I want to know why some people think that the title of "married" is somehow a greater guarantee that a couple will stay together for the sake of the child?
    Well, if you will note the links I put above, I would suppose that would answer your question . The answer is: "People think that because it happens to accurately reflect reality."

    Of the married homes where poverty is absent, how many parents are staying together "for the child" which could actually be damaging to the growth of a child?
    Statistically almost vanishingly few. Unless one of the parents is physically or emotionally abusive, it is pretty unlikely.

    Isn't it more accurate to say that people shouldn't have children until they are in a committed relationship where a supportive desire to have children is mutual?
    No. As Maggie so eloquently pointed out. If you are committed to each other enough to have a child, then you are committed enough to each other to wed.

    Because you can have that with or without marriage. With a divorce rate of 50% there are not just a lot of single parents out there, but also step-parents raising children. How does the philosophy of marriage before having children factor them in, considering it's a second marriage?
    Children raised inside marriages do better than those raised outside marriages. Children raised by a step parent do less well than Children raised by both biological parents who are married to each other, but better than single-parent families.

  4. #54
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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, if you will note the links I put above, I would suppose that would answer your question . The answer is: "People think that because it happens to accurately reflect reality."
    The Daily Mail article did not quote any scientific sources, just the name of the location where the study was supposedly done. Can you please track down that peer reviewed source so that I can read it?

    The PDF has this as its conclusion:

    Although our knowledge is expanding, the implications of cohabitation for children are still largely undefined, despite the increasing likelihood that a child will be born into a cohabiting union. An important difference between these children and those born to married parents is that they are significantly more likely to experience their parents’ separation early in their life course, which may have serious consequences for their subsequent development. In addition, these family experiences and processes differ considerably across race and ethnic groups and by nativity status. Thus any deleterious consequences associated with the increase in cohabiting births may exacerbate the existing inequalities in children’s life trajectories.
    There is absolutely nothing concrete about this conclusion. It points in a direction but it says there is still a lot we don't know and more research is needed.

    If you can put forth another study that is more concrete, one that relies on more than simple census statistics, I would really appreciate that. Maybe something to do with behavioral psychology or family studies?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Statistically almost vanishingly few.
    Statistically, it would be impossible for us to know how many broken married homes are out there because people don't report that on their census. Again, can you please provide research based on more than statistics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Unless one of the parents is physically or emotionally abusive, it is pretty unlikely.
    Yes! Unless they are physically or emotionally abusive, which falls under the question I posed earlier about married yet dysfunctional households. I'm asking how marriage guarantees that physical or emotional abuse is less possible, given the divorce rate and actual statistics on parental child abuse from family services?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No. As Maggie so eloquently pointed out. If you are committed to each other enough to have a child, then you are committed enough to each other to wed.
    That's not answering what I asked. I'm asking you: why should anyone believe that marriage somehow ensures the commitment is more real than two unmarried people who are just as committed to raising a child, and still believe in strong two-parent households with shared responsibilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Children raised inside marriages do better than those raised outside marriages. Children raised by a step parent do less well than Children raised by both biological parents who are married to each other, but better than single-parent families.
    Sorry but nothing you've posted proves this. The not so subtle sub-text of this thread's OP is based on the traditional assumption that unmarried people are somehow less competent or committed toward raising children while also propping up the notion that marriage as the SINGLE VARIABLE is responsible for everything going right.

    Total hogwash! There are plenty, PLENTY of messed up children out there who turned out not so right under the guidance of married parents, just like there are many children who became successful people in life with unwed or even single parents. What about where the child lives? Their socioeconomic status? The kind of community around them? The school they go to? The friends they keep? The kind of mentors in their lives?

    You can't isolate one variable and give it all the credit or damnation. Raising a child is more complex than that.
    Last edited by Northern Light; 01-26-13 at 06:35 AM.

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The Daily Mail article did not quote any scientific sources, just the name of the location where the study was supposedly done. Can you please track down that peer reviewed source so that I can read it?

    The PDF has this as its conclusion:

    There is absolutely nothing concrete about this conclusion. It points in a direction but it says there is still a lot we don't know and more research is needed.

    If you can put forth another study that is more concrete, one that relies on more than simple census statistics, I would really appreciate that. Maybe something to do with behavioral psychology or family studies?

    Statistically, it would be impossible for us to know how many broken married homes are out there because people don't report that on their census. Again, can you please provide research based on more than statistics?

    Yes! Unless they are physically or emotionally abusive, which falls under the question I posed earlier about married yet dysfunctional households. I'm asking how marriage guarantees that physical or emotional abuse is less possible, given the divorce rate and actual statistics on parental child abuse from family services?

    That's not answering what I asked. I'm asking you: why should anyone believe that marriage somehow ensures the commitment is more real than two unmarried people who are just as committed to raising a child, and still believe in strong two-parent households with shared responsibilities?

    Sorry but nothing you've posted proves this. The not so subtle sub-text of this thread's OP is based on the traditional assumption that unmarried people are somehow less competent or committed toward raising children while also propping up the notion that marriage as the SINGLE VARIABLE is responsible for everything going right.

    Total hogwash! There are plenty, PLENTY of messed up children out there who turned out not so right under the guidance of married parents, just like there are many children who became successful people in life with unwed or even single parents. What about where the child lives? Their socioeconomic status? The kind of community around them? The school they go to? The friends they keep? The kind of mentors in their lives?

    You can't isolate one variable and give it all the credit or damnation. Raising a child is more complex than that.
    I wouldn't give a single variable all credit or damnation. I simply point out that it is the most powerful determinable variable, in many cases, overwhelming most all of the others. If you want to read the science, we hashed this out pretty thoroughly a while back, and you are free to go back and read through the (gosh, I don't know, maybe two dozen all told) scholarly articles cited, all of which point to a single conclusion: a household in which a child is raised by two, married, biological parents is one in which they child will - all other factors being constant - do the best. Children are more likely to be physically, emotionally, or sexually abused in a single or non-married parent household, they are more likely to drop out of school, they are more likely to end up with a criminal record, they are more likely to end up as single-parents themselves, and perpetuate the cycle. You don't have to like it - and you don't have to justify anything to us. But it is reality.

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    I think people should do whatever they want. If they don't WANT to get married, then they shouldn't, especially just because it will make other people happy. That's just stupid.

    My parents were married, and it was a horrible relationship. They got married because my mother was pregnant with me. What a terrible reason to get married. I would've been better off if they had never gotten married to begin with.

    I love how some of you people act as if you know what is best for everybody.

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well, there is mountains of evidence that demonstrates that it is better for the children involved - not least because marriage requires and implies a commitment that comes with (among other things) a higher level of difficulty in breaking.



    well, them's the stats.

    ...Unmarried parents are six times more likely to split by their child's fifth birthday than those who are married, say researchers. Cohabiting partners face a 'disproportionate' risk of breaking up in the early years of their son or daughter's life....

    of course, that's in the UK, where there are cultural differences. But it's the same in the United States:

    Yeah, blah, blah, blah. People should do what they want and what makes them happy. Screw the stats.

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Why would anyone think that two people who don't get along and despise one another would be "good" for children?

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Yeah, blah, blah, blah. People should do what they want and what makes them happy. Screw the stats.
    Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I present evidence #14,058 for Black Manta's case.

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    Re: Should people wait until marriage to have children?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Why would anyone think that two people who don't get along and despise one another would be "good" for children?
    Well, because most don't, and because (again) the evidence is fairly overwhelming. The desperate effort to reach as far as necessary into outliers to create a counternarrative may relieve cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't do much for the actual people themselves. We don't help people become better parents by telling them that the decision to get/stay married / divorced is a neutral one.

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