I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.
What paired combat are you talking about?
lots of big bad men are in pogue MOS's. There is this little factor called determination. A whole bunch of strongmen quail at the thought of enduring the training required to be under that ruck for the military hump.
Women don't need to 'match' any select group men, they need to do the EXACT same thing I and millions of other men did. Beat the standard, not every other swinging Richard in the race.
People seem to be posting a lot of emotional responses without bothering to read some of the many stories that are appearing in the media, stories about women who have already been serving in combat but without official recognition as combat troops.
Former troops say time has come for women in combat units - CNN.com
From women in combat to top brass - The Washington Post
then there is the experience of those nations that have had women serving in combat units for several years
BBC News - Women at war: A colonel in Kandahar
Lt Col Jennie Carignan is based in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan - one of the most dangerous parts of the country - and commands a regiment of engineers and landmine experts.
Col Carignan says the men under her command treat her like any other soldier - but it wasn't always that way. <snip>
Having 23 years in the military under her belt, with missions in the Golan Heights and in Bosnia-Hercegovina, helps her command respect.
"I have grown up with everybody. It's not like I just parachuted in, the brand new girl in town."8 Other Nations that Send Women to Combat
Israel: In 1985 the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) began putting women into combat positions and by 2009 women were serving in artillery units, rescue forces, and in anti-aircraft forces. While women must take part in compulsory military service, they are conscripted for only two years, versus three for men.
A study on the integration of female combatants in the IDF between 2002 and 2005 found that women often exhibit "superior skills" in discipline, motivation, and shooting abilities, yet still face prejudicial treatment stemming from "a perceived threat to the historical male combat identity."Are American women weaker than those of other countries, are they less psychologically capable of going into a firefight than Canadian or Israeli women?In Afghanistan, Canada's female soldiers earned the right to fight, and die, as equals
In the early hours of May 17, 2006, Capt. Nich Goddard and another junior officer led more than 200 Canadian and Afghan army soldiers into Afghanistan's Panjwaii district.
By midday, Goddard became the first Canadian soldier since the Korean War to execute a fire mission in support of Canadian troop manoeuvres against a known enemy.
A few hours later, Goddard was killed in a firefight.
The 17th Canadian soldier death in Afghanistan sent shock waves across Canada. It was not Goddard's historical mission that generated headlines, though, but her gender: the 26-year-old officer's given names were Nichola Kathleen Sarah.
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
The better comparison is the "average" military woman compared to the "average" military man. And in those terms, the smarter money every time on whose going to have superior head to head physical performance is the guy. Doesn't mean there aren't some women that will be able to contend above and beyond what the "average" equivalent male is going to be able to do. There will be. But by and large, it's not going to be an equal split...and pointing out random instances of the fact that extremely well trained and conditioned women could out do joe slub on the couch doesn't really affect that notion at all.
That said, there are absolutely women that can likely meet the physical requirements AND also have non-physical traits and skills that may prove to be valuable and I don't have an issue with them being allowed to attempt to enter into combat type of role. Especially since, if I understand right, to get to certain higher ranks you are required to have served some combat duty? But I'm not in favor of making it easier to get into certain roles in the name of "equality".
I'm not saying you're suggesting you disagree (or agree with me) and my issue isn't even so much specifically with what you said, but a general mentality and type of statement similar to what you said that keep coming up. I've had a lot of years experience in a combative type of experience that's physically demanding and have been around a number of women during it. A number of women that, compared to a lot of average guys, I'd put money on the lady hands down. But I also recognize that when placed against a guy at a similar type of "top of his game" training or physical prowess they often still would be at a disadvantage in that narrow context.
Last edited by Zyphlin; 01-25-13 at 10:51 PM.
"I am appalled that somebody who is the nominee...would take that kind of position"
"A court took away a presidency"
"...the brother of a man running for president was the governor of the state..."
It's horrifying because Trump is blunt instead of making overt implications.
If these women that desire to join combat arms can meet exactly the same standards as men they will earn their respect. If they have to lower standards so that more make the cut, then they will be looked down on as weak links.
This is not simply a matter of women having to prove themselves, all combat arms soldiers have to prove themselves. When we had our "turning blue" ceremony in the Infantry it was an achievement. Plenty of people washed out, but the ones who remained learned a new found respect for each other because they knew they had all gone through the same thing and passed the "gut check".
I have no doubt that there are women capable of meeting these standards but I can tell you from experience in the open gender schools that I have attended like Airborne and Air Assault ( and lets face it, these are not hard schools) there was an incredibly high washout rate from females.
I really don't like seeing anyone denigrating anyone else's service, even if it's another service member. I'm thinking it's like a family (sort of). You can bitch about your family members but nobody else can. Anyway, I say this with sincerity, whatever branch of the military under whatever circumstances, sincere thanks to all of you.
"God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."
When I said "pair them in combat", I meant do a head-to-head comparison of the combat skills of the best female candidates versus the best male candidates in no specific order. Restricting to the top 100 of each gender, how many women do you think come out ahead of the male they're matched up against?
I agree determination is a significant factor, but it's very possible to fail regardless of how much determination one has.
Doing the same as what you did is matching what you did.
"With me everything turns into mathematics."
"It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
"It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes