View Poll Results: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

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  • Yes

    17 60.71%
  • No

    4 14.29%
  • Maybe, see my points below

    4 14.29%
  • Who cares option

    3 10.71%
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Thread: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

  1. #51
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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    I guess it would be misused if left in democratic hands with all that projecting. In case you have not noticed, Virginia has two democratic senators, went for Obama, and has a GOP controlled state, and has never had a voting rights act violation/rejection on one of their proposed election changes. Not everyone is as devious as you--some people actually are not so dyed in the wool partisan.
    It went to Obama using popular vote! Using CD's Romney would of won more electorial votes than Obama in the state! Hello!

    Senators have nothing to do with CD's...they are statewide elected positions. The GOP controlled state is entirely due to gerrymandering. I live in Florida...where it is essentially 50/50 but leans more Democratic. 70% of our state house and senate was controlled by Republicans....because of gerrymandering! That's the whole point! You can draw CD's to benefit one party or another. Therefore...if you're drawing the districts you can rig elections to go for you! If you base it upon the popular vote in a state it's determined by something you can't manipulate as easily...voters.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    That's not true at all. Except for farming or mining...which the former needs huge tracts of land and last mentioned is based on where it is not where it is most efficient for production that's just not true.

    People go to places for jobs...and the reason they have traveled over time to urban areas is to seek jobs. If there were jobs in rural areas they would no longer be rural! Plants have been built if former small town and have seen huge population booms.

    . For example Huntville Alabama was a town in the middle of nowhere. A defense contractor built a plant and R&D firm and the poulation increased 94% in a 10 yera period. A toyota plan was added and the population has doubled in 10 years. Huntville Alabama is soon to be an urban area because people flock there for jobs not because it was already urban.
    So you believe that all the profits and wealth in New York City is solely because of the labor of people in Midtown going to the theater and eating $30 hamburgers?

  3. #53
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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Have you ever been to Denver? I've never been ot Minneapolis or Houston but Denver is gorgeous. It's a very clean nice city.

    We've had a conversation on our view of government before and we're pretty set in our ways but I don't agree with you on cities being **** holes.
    Yes, I have been to Denver. I was there for a youth conference in August of 1998. Very beautiful city, as are Boston, Atlanta, and many others. However, they are also havens for poverty. Places where the destitute and non-self-sufficient come to leach off of others. That makes them ****-holes so far as I'm concerned.

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    That's not true at all. Except for farming or mining...which the former needs huge tracts of land and last mentioned is based on where it is not where it is most efficient for production that's just not true.

    People go to places for jobs...and the reason they have traveled over time to urban areas is to seek jobs. If there were jobs in rural areas they would no longer be rural! Plants have been built if former small town and have seen huge population booms.

    . For example Huntville Alabama was a town in the middle of nowhere. A defense contractor built a plant and R&D firm and the poulation increased 94% in a 10 yera period. A toyota plan was added and the population has doubled in 10 years. Huntville Alabama is soon to be an urban area because people flock there for jobs not because it was already urban.
    And without the farming and mining there is no supply for those plants, those people to operate them and thus no urban centers. But a good description of the corruption process. You missed an intermediary step - urban sprawl. It happens because the folks don't really want to live like that, but they need to live close enough to commute to work. Then it decays and the blight solidifies and the area becomes fully urban. The job center finally dies and the urban center decays further. The folks who can flee to the suburbs (decaying themselves). Wait a couple generations and the city populations don't know any other way of life. They start thinking their food comes from the grocery store.

    Urban centers are not sustainable on their own.

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    It went to Obama using popular vote! Using CD's Romney would of won more electorial votes than Obama in the state! Hello!

    Senators have nothing to do with CD's...they are statewide elected positions. The GOP controlled state is entirely due to gerrymandering. I live in Florida...where it is essentially 50/50 but leans more Democratic. 70% of our state house and senate was controlled by Republicans....because of gerrymandering! That's the whole point! You can draw CD's to benefit one party or another. Therefore...if you're drawing the districts you can rig elections to go for you! If you base it upon the popular vote in a state it's determined by something you can't manipulate as easily...voters.
    You are just upset that the democrats may have lost this one election. If the rules were changed, the campaigns would adapt and there is no way to know what the outcome would have been. You are all up in partisan politics and ignoring that Virginia went to Obama, elected the GOP candidates to the top of the state offices, and then elected Obama and Kaine. The facts do not mesh with what you are saying as to that state trying to engage in partisan abuse. There are blue CD's and red CD's because of rural vs. urban, but they do not have modern snakey gerrymandered lines and I have seen no indication that the GOP is trying to redraw them to create a bunch of new GOP safe seats. At worst, the state is trying to give both campaigns reason to continue to campaign there because as a newby "swing state" they liked all the money they got from the stepped up advertising and campaign visits and the like, and want to keep the Benjamins rolling in.

    EDIT: BTW, in case you did not notice, this is a continuation of the system that only left Mitt and Ron Paul on teh GOP ticket and Ron Paul had his best showing ever. I think he was somewhere in the 40% range
    Last edited by Fisher; 01-23-13 at 01:42 PM.

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    So you believe that all the profits and wealth in New York City is solely because of the labor of people in Midtown going to the theater and eating $30 hamburgers?
    No they are wealthy because of value added to the production process...
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    That is exactly the Republican plan. They know they can't win by actually getting more votes, considering the previously mentioned hateful positions towards nearly everyone who isn't a white, heterosexual, Christian male. So they're trying to make their votes count for more.



    That's not even a little bit true. Rural districts have WAY fewer people in them than urban ones. Seven New York counties compose half the state's population, and the other fifty-five the other half. That's three cities, NYC, Rochester, and Buffalo. Many cities comprise a single county, while a large rural area may have a tenth as many people and be divided into several counties. This is nothing but a move to make those mostly empty rural districts count for more than the dense urban ones.

    There is absolutely no reason to muck about with electoral votes and winning states. No state population is homogeneous, so no candidate can win by appealing to the interests of one state over another, since states don't really have different interests like that. The only fair system is a direct popular vote. Every person counts the same, and nobody needs to care about where they live.
    Since you are ignorant of how Congressional districts are sized, here is a nice chart of all the New York Congressional Districts and their population and variance from the target (717,707).

    Center for Urban Research - 2010 Census population for NYS legislative districts and Congress

    The 23-NY which I think anyone would consider to be rural has 664,245. The 15-NY which on Manhattan has 639,673.

    Pick another state and I'll show you are wrong there too.

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    You are just upset that the democrats may have lost this one election.
    No..I'm upset because it's something added that is even further away from 1 person 1 vote than we even currently have! It's another level added that can be manipulated by partisan hackary. If Republicans win because they have more votes than the country spoke. If Democrats win because they had more votes then the country spoke. If Republicans or Democrats win because of lines drawn on a map every 10 years while losing the popular vote it's partisan hackary.

    You are all up in partisan politics and ignoring that Virginia went to Obama, elected the GOP candidates to the top of the state offices, and then elected Obama and Kaine. The facts do not mesh with what you are saying as to that state trying to engage in partisan abuse.
    The absolutely do support what I'm saying. Statewide elections like President and Senators went to Democrats. More Democratic voters showed up to the polls, the majority of voters in the election were Democrats. The state seats went to Republicans DESPITE! more Democratic voters. The election shows that state seats based on Congressional Districts does not mirror popular votes in the state of of Virginia.

    There are blue CD's and red CD's because of rural vs. urban, but they do not have modern snakey gerrymandered lines and I have seen no indication that the GOP is trying to redraw them to create a bunch of new GOP safe seats. At worst, the state is trying to give both campaigns reason to continue to campaign there because as a newby "swing state" they liked all the money they got from the stepped up advertising and campaign visits and the like, and want to keep the Benjamins rolling in.
    The swing state status is based on the state popular vote. It has nothing to do with CD's. If CD's determined the electorial votes in Virginia it would be decidedly red while the majority of voters voted Democrat.

    EDIT: BTW, in case you did not notice, this is a continuation of the system that only left Mitt and Ron Paul on teh GOP ticket and Ron Paul had his best showing ever. I think he was somewhere in the 40% range
    If you want true 3rd party representation then you should advocate proportional representation and be against our first past the post system. Both are MORE representative of the population not less like the proposed method of using CD's to determine electorial votes.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  9. #59
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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    If you equalized congressional districts to be as accurate a reflection of equivalent population so that urban and dense population areas are not slighted, and so that we do not severely alter the possibility of an electoral vs. popular vote winner, I would support this. It would allow a greater level of popular expression in the selection of the President while retaining the safeguards of the electoral college.

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    Re: Are the Republicans trying to rig a presidential election?

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    It is call, redistricting. Gerrymandering is when there is a tortured effort to come up with districts that are clearly phony on a map. (gerrymander is a play on salamander, which is what one particular district in Massachusetts look like).

    There is also the assumption that based on party affiliation, state legislatures know how someone is going to vote. The reality is that to some degree, they do.

    States can decide how the allocation of their Electoral votes are decided. I like the 1 district, 1 vote method (with 2 statewide votes going to the state majority candidate) much more than the--Candidate A got the majority of the votes in the country, but our state voted in the majority for Candidate B. We agree to go along with the national majority and cast all our votes for Candidate B. That method truly is wrong.
    Gerrymandering is defined as "a practice that attempts to establish a political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating geographic boundaries to create partisan advantaged districts." This is clearly done every census year by both parties.

    I don't like the method you mentioned, because it can cause a candidate who received a very small amount of the national vote, to win the election. In 2012 despite losing the popular vote by 4%, Romney would've won the election by 30+ electoral votes. Even though it would've benefited the candidate I supported, that is not something I can agree with.
    There should be Instant Runoff Voting

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