View Poll Results: Do we need anti-discrimination laws?

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  • Yes

    34 72.34%
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    13 27.66%
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Thread: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

  1. #11
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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Based on my very limited experience of recent years, I would guess that service discrimination would be unlikely but in employment I suspect that there would be a temptation for management to hire those they are most comfortable with themselves. But it would be bad for business if you were obvious about it so maybe not even then.

    Las Vegas was a segregated city and I'm sure you all know that Sammy Davis had to use a service entrance, but over the years, I would say that racial crap has gone. Now, in the South or the North, I have no clue.
    I think just getting an entry level job, there is likely to be no discrimination any more. However I do think went it comes to upper management and to some degree middle management, efforts still need to be made to ensure ethnic minorities and women are given fair consideration.

    My limited experience is FOR KEY POSITIONS the standard of qualifications and job performance for ethnic minorities has to be off the charts above and beyond non-minorities to be evaluated as doing a good job whereas non-minorities have to do a good job but not perform at the same standards. My observation is this dual standard does not apply to "worker bee" positions, just key roles and often its just one minority who is allowed to advance to a key role seemingly in order to look inclusive/the guy is so freaking amazing its stupid not to put him in a key role.

    For women often sadly being eye candy and flirty in a factor in advancing to a key role. Its not the only factor but my observation is its one factor.

    Lastly, I don't think any of this is deliberately and intentional. I think we all have a mental picture of how a person we envision to fill a certain role to look. I think subconsciously gender and ethnicity plays a part in that mental picture with many people unless there is something that stands out in a powerful way. Being the hardest working, most talented worker and articulate person you've ever seen if that worker is an ethnic minority send that powerful message. Giving every man in the room whiplash every time you walk in the room and then being the sweetest most ego building person he's ever met provided you can also do the job also makes a powerful statement. However, being the subconscious "mental image" of how people in a key role should look is a huge advantage if tall, male, white, well dressed, etc. happens to be that image. I also think the more women and minorities are seen in society serving in key positions, they more the "default" mental image becomes more inclusive.
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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Unconstitutional laws are never necessary, then or now. Respect for the rule of law should be paramount.

    But since you're asking, no. Emphatically, no.

    While Title II of CRA 1964 has always been unconstitutional - far exceeding the limits of Congress's authority - as a practical matter, there is zero utility for it in the modern day. People's attitudes have changed, social media, organized boycotts, etc. Always remember that businesses want to make money.

    And remember that Jim Crow laws were an equal and opposite evil, demanding that businesses within a state could NOT give custom. Compelling a business to give custom OR to not give custom to anyone is wrong. By simply abolishing Jim Crow laws, things could have and would have normalized. Because... oh yeah... businesses want to make money.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 01-22-13 at 11:01 AM.

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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Yes, unfortunately, we still need those laws as to race. One of the things that make me tepid about the gay rights stuff is that it is just a matter of time until that one gets thrown in the mix which will make it even more of a minefield for employers on the potential nuisance claim end of the pool.
    Its really quite disgusting. I'm against anti-discrimination laws, because while they sound good, to me it just ends up making every hiring/firing a tribute to race/gender/sexuality. Its going to end up being like this. If you fire someone who is gay/lesbian, its because you're discriminating against their sexuality and get sued. If you never hire that same gay/lesbian because you don't want to get sued if you have to fire him/her, you get sued for discriminatory hiring practices. I hate to use the word lazy here, but why else would someone want that strict of protections unless it was because he/she was going to be either lazy or a misfit.

    When I talk about a moocher society, civil lawyers are one of the biggest parts of that. It seems like everyone is just trying to get theirs from either A. the government or B. a lawsuit. I found it appalling that Obama would talk about we, and being together, and a collective, blah blah, when he takes money from the very people who instigate Americans trying to take from other Americans.

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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I think just getting an entry level job, there is likely to be no discrimination any more. However I do think went it comes to upper management and to some degree middle management, efforts still need to be made to ensure ethnic minorities and women are given fair consideration.

    My limited experience is FOR KEY POSITIONS the standard of qualifications and job performance for ethnic minorities has to be off the charts above and beyond non-minorities to be evaluated as doing a good job whereas non-minorities have to do a good job but not perform at the same standards. My observation is this dual standard does not apply to "worker bee" positions, just key roles and often its just one minority who is allowed to advance to a key role seemingly in order to look inclusive/the guy is so freaking amazing its stupid not to put him in a key role.

    For women often sadly being eye candy and flirty in a factor in advancing to a key role. Its not the only factor but my observation is its one factor.

    Lastly, I don't think any of this is deliberately and intentional. I think we all have a mental picture of how a person we envision to fill a certain role to look. I think subconsciously gender and ethnicity plays a part in that mental picture with many people unless there is something that stands out in a powerful way. Being the hardest working, most talented worker and articulate person you've ever seen if that worker is an ethnic minority send that powerful message. Giving every man in the room whiplash every time you walk in the room and then being the sweetest most ego building person he's ever met provided you can also do the job also makes a powerful statement. However, being the subconscious "mental image" of how people in a key role should look is a huge advantage if tall, male, white, well dressed, etc. happens to be that image. I also think the more women and minorities are seen in society serving in key positions, they more the "default" mental image becomes more inclusive.
    I actually am not that against that type of affirmative action. Forcing employers to meet racial quotas in hiring, and making every firing an attribute to race/gender/sexuality is just asking for trial lawyers to step in, and it adds unnecessary burdens on businesses. But, I think if you completely ignore the hiring/firing practices of business, and simply say "you need to have x% of minorities/women in your management positions" it is a much easier policy to manage. It will have the advantage of A. allowing businesses to promote the most qualified women/minorities who have already been working in the company & B. having them in those positions will indirectly change the hiring/firing process.

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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Just because dejure discrimination does not exist does not mean de facto discrimination doesn't either. Even if discrimination weren't an issue, I see no reason to repeal anti-discrimination laws. Discrimination is still wrong, and there's no guarantee that it won't happen in the future.
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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    There's a thread out there about things you don't like but wouldn't ban, I believe.

    Well, here's one, I guess.



    Discrimination is morally wrong, but there is no reasonable basis for making it illegal.

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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Just because dejure discrimination does not exist does not mean de facto discrimination doesn't either. Even if discrimination weren't an issue, I see no reason to repeal anti-discrimination laws. Discrimination is still wrong, and there's no guarantee that it won't happen in the future.
    Really good point. If by some miracle murder instantly stopped, that's no reason to say "Okay, murder just isn't happening anymore so lets repeal the law against it and make murder legal."
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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Yes, unfortunately, we still need those laws as to race. One of the things that make me tepid about the gay rights stuff is that it is just a matter of time until that one gets thrown in the mix which will make it even more of a minefield for employers on the potential nuisance claim end of the pool.
    I agree those laws are still needed, and I think gay rights should be thrown into the mix. what should matter is qualifications for the job. Keep that focus, and there is no real minefield.

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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    there are not many worker protection laws that I would repeal. I definitely wouldn't support repealing measures banning discrimination.

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    re: Would businesses discriminate today? Are laws against discrimination necessary?[W:83]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    Do we really need laws against discrimination by businesses in 2013?
    Depends I suppose. I would say many companies in the modern era wouldn't discriminate. However, a nonzero number will do so and will have customers who frequent it. So if you know this but your goal is removal of government force; than no it's not really needed. Some areas will have businesses which discriminate but likely enough won't such that consumerism and general availability are not greatly affected. If your goal is to ensure against discrimination, then yes it really is necessary since some businesses left to their own devices would discriminate.
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