View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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    17 56.67%
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    13 43.33%
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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #81
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The role of government isn't to "solve problems," it is to protect essential liberty. Failed businesses and other such problems are a private matter, not a public one. As Goshin amply demonstrates in the above post, republicans haven't got the stomach for liberty.
    And my right to not drink mercury poisoned water is defended and enforced by that very government, which impedes and eliminates a private companies' "right" to pollute the well.

    Waiting till AFTER I've been poisoned to do something about it is a tad late for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  2. #82
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And are the houses cheaper as a result? And if not, who is to blame for that?
    No, the houses are not cheaper.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  3. #83
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    No I didn't. You are just repeating your vapid straw man caricature of libertarians. the word "public" refers to the matter being the proper domain of government, which a failed business is not.

    Nothing hyperbolic there, that is all very literal. Don't like being called a fascistic authoritarian? Don't be one.
    For the record, your posts are a caricature of libertarians. They are the embodiment of the libertarian stereotype - the reason libertarianism is not taken seriously. And I really don't mind being called a "fascist authoritarian". It's like saying gravity doesn't exist. It's just not true so all it does is reflect badly on you, in my mind.

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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And my right to not drink mercury poisoned water is defended and enforced by that very government, which impedes and eliminates a private companies' "right" to pollute the well.

    Waiting till AFTER I've been poisoned to do something about it is a tad late for me.
    If you didn't drink poisoned water how can justify the argument your rights were violated? It would seem to me that the water is undrinkable, but until you actually drink it there isn't much to say about your rights being violated because of you right not to be poisoned.

  5. #85
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    A company without the power of government coercion can not infringe on liberty. People have a right to enter into voluntary contracts for work. How can one voluntarily have one's rights infringed?
    Because hunger is not voluntary and neither is homelessness. FDR put it this way.....

    "We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made."

    Obama touched on it in his inauguration speech today too....

    "The commitments we make to each other -- through Medicare, and Medicaid, and Social Security -- these things do not sap our initiative; they strengthen us," Obama said. "They do not make us a nation of takers; they free us to take the risks that make this country great."
    Last edited by iguanaman; 01-21-13 at 07:33 PM.

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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And my right to not drink mercury poisoned water is defended and enforced by that very government, which impedes and eliminates a private companies' "right" to pollute the well.

    Waiting till AFTER I've been poisoned to do something about it is a tad late for me.
    This is the point I would drive home over and over. Legal remedies after the fact can do nothing to mitigate damage like that and is why we need government regulation to prevent it. Regulations covering clean air and water, injuries on the job and product safety keep us from being killed by poor standards and operating conditions.

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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Because hunger is not voluntary and neither is homelessness. FDR put it this way.....

    "We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made."
    No one cares how FDR put it. His statement is contradiction anyway. You can't call for coercion and freedom at the same time.

    Obama touched on it in his speech today too....

    "The commitments we make to each other -- through Medicare, and Medicaid, and Social Security -- these things do not sap our initiative; they strengthen us," Obama said. "They do not make us a nation of takers; they free us to take the risks that make this country great."
    Except that they lower wages and raise prices, yeah, lets go with that nonsense he said there. Oh wait, we still have to face the fact that gifts don't motivate people. Crap.

  8. #88
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No, the houses are not cheaper.
    And this is, essentially, why I no longer buy this tired, lame argument put forth by both libertarians and republicans...that cheaper labor = cheaper goods. The idea that out quality of life becomes cheaper, and thus, increases, when the cost to manufacture goods stays low, or goes lower.

    The only thing going up these days are the salaries of the wealthy.

    And I see it more and more and more. Economic trouble hits, so companies rein in the payroll, cut hours, etc...forcing the salaried staff to work more and more hours, and kicking the hourlies out earlier and earlier, forcing them into hardships of their own. A salaried worker (of which I am one) used to get by working, say, 45-55 hours per week, sometimes more during the busy season, what have you. Then we started being told to cut our subordinates, turning that work week into a 55-75 hour week, with no extra pay to show for it. And we did it, thinking, well, this is what it takes, and when the economy picks back up, things will go back to normal, and those of us who stuck it out will be recognized. Well, things are picking up. Companies are posting RECORD profits, even when adjusted for inflation against historical measures. But the pay rolls are staying gouged, the skeleton crews are just as lean now as they were 4 years ago. Still working those 60+ hour weeks. Wages are still frozen, or at best, increasing in pathetic increments, like 3 percent per year. In short, once they (the corporate class) take something, even an inch, they never get it back. Prove you can do the work of two, and that's what you'll be stuck doing for the rest of your career.

    The standard issue liberal response is to say "You need a union".

    The standard issue republican response is to say "If you don't like it, find another job, sell yourself, use market competition to garner better wages."

    Well, the problem with unions are many, and besides, not too many managers unions out there, you know? But yeah, too many problems to list here, it needs it's own thread, and has many besides.

    The problem with trying to get another job is that there is a wall. You got tons of 20-30K a year jobs...they are everywhere. Got quite a few 30-40K jobs, too. Even a slew of 40-50K jobs. But past 50K a year, you gotta be a specialist of some sort. 50K-100K requires skill sets and exp that are highly specialized...in other words, if those jobs are not specifically what you went to college for, you gotta go back to college to get one. Which, of course, means spending a minimum of 20K, but more realistically, 50K. Not an option for a lot of people. And then, the 100K and up jobs...all requires extensive exp, which is code for...you gotta know somebody. There is a major barrier between "normal" jobs, and the elite. Enough so that they even now have their own job search engine. Like such a thing is even needed.

    Anyway, my point is, the jobs that a lot of, or even most americans, are qualified for, are all part of the same corporations, all have the same beurocracies, in many cases, sharing at some point many of the same heads. We're all subsidiaries of someone larger, and those larger companies all copy each other in SOP. Which is to say, meet the new boss, same as the old boss, and meet the new job, same as the old job. The grass is not greener somewhere else.

    So, as I am working longer hours without significantly more pay to produce things of significantly increasing price, what do YOU, the consumer, get out of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #89
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If you didn't drink poisoned water how can justify the argument your rights were violated? It would seem to me that the water is undrinkable, but until you actually drink it there isn't much to say about your rights being violated because of you right not to be poisoned.
    Wow..
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #90
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    No one cares how FDR put it. His statement is contradiction anyway. You can't call for coercion and freedom at the same time.
    Yes you can. Society refers to it as compromise. Freedom, complete freedom, is not conducive to society, so compromise is made. I lose my freedom to punch you in the face, and the same to you, so that we enjoy the freedom of not getting punched in the face all the time. It's the simplest concept in the world.

    Except that they lower wages and raise prices, yeah, lets go with that nonsense he said there. Oh wait, we still have to face the fact that gifts don't motivate people. Crap.
    What DOES motivate people?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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