View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #61
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Are you [still] a libertarian if you support business owners being able to exert power over employees?
    This is way too vague to respond to.

    The guy writing your paycheck always has some power; they set the job description, they set the policies that employee works under...

    Couldn't really work any other way...

    So, yes? I guess. No doubt you have something else you want to say to "trap" us hapless libertarians because we're really not libertarians because of _____. Get to the filling in the blank, if so.

  2. #62
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I agree. One factor, but certainly not every factor, is that our government has pushed these businesses away with increased regulations and taxes. The other factor is that our citizens will still support these companies who outsource by buying their product. When we look at the end product though, we're benefitting from cheap foreign labor by getting such cheap products that even the poor can afford.

    We as Americans should be more focused on higher skill jobs that the cheap foreign labor can't accomplish. Why would I want to glue arms onto an action figure 40 hours a week, when some guy in China will do it for me? Our economy has done a poor job of adapting to the global market. Instead of whining and complaining about cheap foreign labor, we should be capitalizing on it.
    .

    There are problems though. Not everyone is suited for a desk job or something requiring a 4 yr degree. A good many people just aren't academically inclined, and a fair-sized minority just flat-out don't have what it takes to get a degree or perform intellectual labor, no matter how hard they work at it.

    There should still be room for blue-collar workers to make a living in America without ending up in a rusty single-wide trailer with no electricity.

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  3. #63
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Because I can't see how K-mart is damaging our economy by paying Joe Bob fair market value for his labor.
    Goshin has answered this fairly well already, but I'll put my spin on it as well.

    Any individual and institution is capable of harming society or some of those within it: this includes businesses. Whether or not businesses are "just trying to make money" or paying someone an artificial "fair market value for their labor", their actions may still and, in many cases, have harmed individuals and society at large. In the same light, actions that the government has taken has harmed individuals and society in general. In fact, big business and the government have sometimes come together to develop policies that have harmed individuals and society at large.

    For example, when the government allows businesses to offer home loans that will damage the entire economy and in turn, the entire country, it is both government and business that has harmed the nation. It isn't one or the other. They both took actions that were detrimental. Whether or not they should have taken those actions is not another question, but that they did take those actions is undeniable.

    The point is that one cannot dismiss the harm that business can and has done to society simply because "it's a business's job to make money". There are ways to make money without doing so at the expense of other people and excusing the businesses who do unnecessarily make money at the expense of others is problematic. It holds people to lower standards that they can and should be held to in the name of an artificial expectation for what it means to be a business.

  4. #64
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I addressed all of your one point. I'm also for campaign reform. I don't believe campaign contributions should be allowed in any form. A candidate should get an advertisement/campaign voucher, and it should be equal to all other candidates. I want to remove big business from politics.
    If you'd like to believe, that calling my arguments crap and liquidating the private sector of responsibility addressed any single point, that's your choice.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1061376008

    I like that you used the term "unaccountable entities". What you don't however seem to realize is that our government has become one of those. I would like to neuter them instead of empowering them
    .I know where you stand, friend, you've made it clear in the past. You want more power for the government to manipulate the market, while I understand that it is the government power itself that creates the problem.
    In my mind, the problem lies in the power we've centralized within the private sector. While you see fit to hand them more, I find that with the appropriate tweaks, the government can reign them in.

    And it's the lesser of two evils. The government at least partially accountable, consisting of elected officials.

    You blame the businesses for EVERYTHING. From your posts, the only logical conclusion can be that you believe all business owners are the monopoly man, raping freedom and sacking profits.!
    If history agrees with me, I can't help but feel that way. It is not reality I bend to my ideas, but my ideas that bend to reality.

  5. #65
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    There are problems though. Not everyone is suited for a desk job or something requiring a 4 yr degree. A good many people just aren't academically inclined, and a fair-sized minority just flat-out don't have what it takes to get a degree or perform intellectual labor, no matter how hard they work at it.

    There should still be room for blue-collar workers to make a living in America without ending up in a rusty single-wide trailer with no electricity.
    Of course, but most of the outsourced jobs are factory jobs, not real blue collar jobs. We should be happy that we're getting such cheap products so that we may use them to build even better things.

    For example, I recently bought an ultrasonic sensor for the robot I'm building from China for 2 dollars. This little circuit board emits ultrasonic signals, measures the return time, then produces a proportional electrical signal. I could now take this cheap ultrasonic sensor and design a line of robots assembled by Americans with it. We can now enjoy a cheap product because some guy in China worked his ass off in a factory to give us a cheap product to build great things with.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #66
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This is one of the reasons I parted company with strict libertarianism, the more extreme adherents of which do not believe in ANY gov't intervention between employer and employee... no matter how heinously the former treats the latter. There is an assumption that the free market will take care of abusive employers.

    Unfortunately, when the economy is slow and jobs scarce, this is not so.


    In our American philosophy of governance, government is ESTABLISHED for the purpose of protecting LIBERTY... and no where is that need greater than in relationships between very powerful organizations and very not-empowered individuals. It is practially the sin-qua-non of government to prevent the individual from being unreasonably abused by the group, the weak from being unreasonably exploited by the strong.

    Otherwise we'd have little need of government at all.
    Funny, that's exactly where I part ways with all you crypto-fascist republicans. You guys talk a good game about liberty but in the same breath you'll unashamedly promote authoritarian policies, apparent with no sense of irony. You guys are perfectly cool with infringing on essential liberty and god-given rights as long as it suits your own personal prejudices. Disgusting.

  7. #67
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Goshin has answered this fairly well already, but I'll put my spin on it as well.

    Any individual and institution is capable of harming society or some of those within it: this includes businesses. Whether or not businesses are "just trying to make money" or paying someone an artificial "fair market value for their labor", their actions may still and, in many cases, have harmed individuals and society at large. In the same light, actions that the government has taken has harmed individuals and society in general. In fact, big business and the government have sometimes come together to develop policies that have harmed individuals and society at large.

    For example, when the government allows businesses to offer home loans that will damage the entire economy and in turn, the entire country, it is both government and business that has harmed the nation. It isn't one or the other. They both took actions that were detrimental. Whether or not they should have taken those actions is not another question, but that they did take those actions is undeniable.

    The point is that one cannot dismiss the harm that business can and has done to society simply because "it's a business's job to make money". There are ways to make money without doing so at the expense of other people and excusing the businesses who do unnecessarily make money at the expense of others is problematic. It holds people to lower standards that they can and should be held to in the name of an artificial expectation for what it means to be a business.
    Ive already stated that the relationship between business and government is a disease. For example, what if some guy tried to bang Joe Bob's wife. Lets say she went through with it. Who should Joe be madder at? The asshole who was simply looking out for himself, or the wife who swore an oath of loyalty to Joe?

    Our politicians swore an oath of loyalty to us, and they are violating that oath. K-mart doesn't owe us ****.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #68
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Of course, but most of the outsourced jobs are factory jobs, not real blue collar jobs. We should be happy that we're getting such cheap products so that we may use them to build even better things.

    For example, I recently bought an ultrasonic sensor for the robot I'm building from China for 2 dollars. This little circuit board emits ultrasonic signals, measures the return time, then produces a proportional electrical signal. I could now take this cheap ultrasonic sensor and design a line of robots assembled by Americans with it. We can now enjoy a cheap product because some guy in China worked his ass off in a factory to give us a cheap product to build great things with.

    I get your point... but I live in the South. When I was born, most people worked in factories and made a decent living doing it. Today, most of those factories are closed, and most of the people that worked in them are working lower-paying service jobs. Yes, we've managed to attract SOME factories from other parts of the country, because our state has less regs and taxes than many and no legal status for unions, but it hasn't made up the shortfall by a long shot. I'm not speaking theoretically... I'm talking about people I know, including family and neighbors.

    It may "solve" some problems, but it also creates others.

    Construction... well we have lots of that but it has mostly been taken over by illegals working for peanuts, a concrete mason that made $20 an hour in the 80s is lucky if he can find a job literally for anything more than minimum wage today. Again, I'm talking about people I know personally.

    I've seen so many businesses close their doors and NOT reopen at all, not even under another owner, in the past decade... it worries me.

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  9. #69
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I get your point... but I live in the South. When I was born, most people worked in factories and made a decent living doing it. Today, most of those factories are closed, and most of the people that worked in them are working lower-paying service jobs. Yes, we've managed to attract SOME factories from other parts of the country, because our state has less regs and taxes than many and no legal status for unions, but it hasn't made up the shortfall by a long shot. I'm not speaking theoretically... I'm talking about people I know, including family and neighbors.

    It may "solve" some problems, but it also creates others.

    Construction... well we have lots of that but it has mostly been taken over by illegals working for peanuts, a concrete mason that made $20 an hour in the 80s is lucky if he can find a job literally for anything more than minimum wage today. Again, I'm talking about people I know personally.

    I've seen so many businesses close their doors and NOT reopen at all, not even under another owner, in the past decade... it worries me.
    The role of government isn't to "solve problems," it is to protect essential liberty. Failed businesses and other such problems are a private matter, not a public one. As Goshin amply demonstrates in the above post, republicans haven't got the stomach for liberty.

  10. #70
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I get your point... but I live in the South. When I was born, most people worked in factories and made a decent living doing it. Today, most of those factories are closed, and most of the people that worked in them are working lower-paying service jobs. Yes, we've managed to attract SOME factories from other parts of the country, because our state has less regs and taxes than many and no legal status for unions, but it hasn't made up the shortfall by a long shot. I'm not speaking theoretically... I'm talking about people I know, including family and neighbors.

    It may "solve" some problems, but it also creates others.

    Construction... well we have lots of that but it has mostly been taken over by illegals working for peanuts, a concrete mason that made $20 an hour in the 80s is lucky if he can find a job literally for anything more than minimum wage today. Again, I'm talking about people I know personally.

    I've seen so many businesses close their doors and NOT reopen at all, not even under another owner, in the past decade... it worries me.
    My town has had greater success attracting business investment from privately owned foreign (mostly European) companies than publicly traded US companies. The best angle for the future seems to be to say screw dealing with Wall Street and focus on attracting those sorts of investments.

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