View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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  • Yes

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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #51
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    When, in effect, it becomes "accept employer abuse or starve with no job".


    Which is often the case in bad economic times like these, for those who are not in a high-demand position.
    I totally get that concept, but when assigning blame, I don't try to blame the few people who actually are providing jobs. I tend to blame the politicians who are in dereliction of their duties by representing the needs of the rich few, vs the needs of their constituents.

    The socialist's solution is to give more power to the corrupt men who are responsible for the very problem at hand, while I prefer to neuter their power, and redirect our attention towards rational self-interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #52
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Are you [still] a libertarian if you support business owners being able to exert power over employees?

    This is one of the reasons I parted company with strict libertarianism, the more extreme adherents of which do not believe in ANY gov't intervention between employer and employee... no matter how heinously the former treats the latter. There is an assumption that the free market will take care of abusive employers.

    Unfortunately, when the economy is slow and jobs scarce, this is not so.


    In our American philosophy of governance, government is ESTABLISHED for the purpose of protecting LIBERTY... and no where is that need greater than in relationships between very powerful organizations and very not-empowered individuals. It is practially the sin-qua-non of government to prevent the individual from being unreasonably abused by the group, the weak from being unreasonably exploited by the strong.

    Otherwise we'd have little need of government at all.

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  3. #53
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I totally get that concept, but when assigning blame, I don't try to blame the few people who actually are providing jobs. I tend to blame the politicians who are in dereliction of their duties by representing the needs of the rich few, vs the needs of their constituents.

    The socialist's solution is to give more power to the corrupt men who are responsible for the very problem at hand, while I prefer to neuter their power, and redirect our attention towards rational self-interest.

    That would be lovely.... IF people actually looked towards their long-term rational self-interest, and kept an eye on making sure their employer-employee relationship didn't become one of exploitation rather than mutual productivity.

    Unfortunately so many people are very short-sighted and none too good at determining their rational self-interest, especially within the context of their position in society.

    I part company with Objectivists in believing that rational self-interest is all we need... self-interest all too easily becomes selfishness unless tempered with compassion and fairness.

    A rising tide may lift all boats, but when the tide goes out it is a different story.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  4. #54
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Get off my thread.
    Lol perhaps you should only post in a echo chamber you would be much happier.

  5. #55
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    That would be lovely.... IF people actually looked towards their long-term rational self-interest, and kept an eye on making sure their employer-employee relationship didn't become one of exploitation rather than mutual productivity.

    Unfortunately so many people are very short-sighted and none too good at determining their rational self-interest, especially within the context of their position in society.

    I part company with Objectivists in believing that rational self-interest is all we need... self-interest all too easily becomes selfishness unless tempered with compassion and fairness.

    A rising tide may lift all boats, but when the tide goes out it is a different story.
    And I agree with all of that. There certainly is a limited role that the government can play to better our society. I still however don't see how kinkos is the master market manipulator and the scourge of our society for paying Joe Bob fair market value for his labor.

    We all agree, our economy is messed up, but who's fault is it, K-Mart's? Or corrupt politics?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #56
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    We all agree, our economy is messed up, but who's fault is it, K-Mart's? Or corrupt politics?
    Why does it have to be one or the other?

  7. #57
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    And I agree with all of that. There certainly is a limited role that the government can play to better our society. I still however don't see how kinkos is the master market manipulator and the scourge of our society for paying Joe Bob fair market value for his labor.

    We all agree, our economy is messed up, but who's fault is it, K-Mart's? Or corrupt politics?

    Some of both actually. The gov't has a habit of screwing things up by playing favorites and pretending they can ignore Reality in favor of Oughta-be, but big business also has a habit of lobbying gov and buying Senators to get legislation that favors the big boys and tends to run Mom And Pop outta business.

    It's a combination of the two... in fact, one could very well call it a real conspiracy, because it involves behind-the-scenes collaboration and unethical back-scratching and questionable money.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  8. #58
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Some of both actually. The gov't has a habit of screwing things up by playing favorites and pretending they can ignore Reality in favor of Oughta-be, but big business also has a habit of lobbying gov and buying Senators to get legislation that favors the big boys and tends to run Mom And Pop outta business.

    It's a combination of the two... in fact, one could very well call it a real conspiracy, because it involves behind-the-scenes collaboration and unethical back-scratching and questionable money.
    It would be pretty pointless for big business to lobby someone who has no power to help them. Business I can understand, we can all take it at face value. Yeah, they're trying to make more money. Our politicians on the other hand, have taken an oath to uphold the constitution, and to represent their people. I hold them to a much higher standard. As long as we give our politicians the power to manipulate the market, they will.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  9. #59
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It would be pretty pointless for big business to lobby someone who has no power to help them. Business I can understand, we can all take it at face value. Yeah, they're trying to make more money. Our politicians on the other hand, have taken an oath to uphold the constitution, and to represent their people. I hold them to a much higher standard. As long as we give our politicians the power to manipulate the market, they will.

    I understand, but when you have so many big businesses that seem to be myopically focused on the short-term bottom line, to the detriment of their nation and fellow citizens, I think it is a problem.

    For instance, all the big corps sending jobs and factories overseas where they can get extremely cheap labor, then importing the finished goods back to the lucrative US consumer market, all in the name of maximizing profits... never mind the cost in American jobs, never mind that in the long term this could undermine the very same rich US consumer market they depend on to sell the goods.

    When about half the population is too poor to pay Fed income tax, something has gone awry.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #60
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I understand, but when you have so many big businesses that seem to be myopically focused on the short-term bottom line, to the detriment of their nation and fellow citizens, I think it is a problem.

    For instance, all the big corps sending jobs and factories overseas where they can get extremely cheap labor, then importing the finished goods back to the lucrative US consumer market, all in the name of maximizing profits... never mind the cost in American jobs, never mind that in the long term this could undermine the very same rich US consumer market they depend on to sell the goods.

    When about half the population is too poor to pay Fed income tax, something has gone awry.
    I agree. One factor, but certainly not every factor, is that our government has pushed these businesses away with increased regulations and taxes. The other factor is that our citizens will still support these companies who outsource by buying their product. When we look at the end product though, we're benefitting from cheap foreign labor by getting such cheap products that even the poor can afford.

    We as Americans should be more focused on higher skill jobs that the cheap foreign labor can't accomplish. Why would I want to glue arms onto an action figure 40 hours a week, when some guy in China will do it for me? Our economy has done a poor job of adapting to the global market. Instead of whining and complaining about cheap foreign labor, we should be capitalizing on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Why does it have to be one or the other?
    Because I can't see how K-mart is damaging our economy by paying Joe Bob fair market value for his labor.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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