View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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  • Yes

    17 56.67%
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    13 43.33%
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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #201
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Well, my position hasn't changed. Until now, you were simply misunderstanding my rhetoric.

    I'd do the following to fix it:
    - Make higher education free and increase the number of technically oriented institutions.
    - Establish independent workers' collectives.
    - Replace the welfare program with a jobs guarantee program - see the Civilian Conservation Corps.
    - Increase funding to regulatory agencies.
    - Pass tax reform to make our brackets similar to those used in Germany.
    - Set salary caps for executives.
    - Put a hefty tax on inheritance.
    - Increase funding to public high schools and require them to offer free tutoring for SAT/ACT.

    Among other things.
    1) Education is one of the few things I do think should be socialized. There is no better to way insure equal OPPORTUNITY (not outcome) than to provide standard education. This needs to be more like Germany though, where there are 3 levels of high schools, each designed to route kids into the right direction, whether that be job training, a technical school, or college.
    2) I don't think the state should be establishing anything. If workers want to establish it and join VOLUNTARILY, then they should do that
    3) I can get on board with that.
    4) Disagree. We need better regulations not more.
    5) The progressiveness of the German tax system is absolutely insane. Almost no country in the world ****s the poor and middle class harder with taxes than Germany. Someone making 1000 euro a month, barely enough to live on, still pays about 200 euro a month in taxes, an effective rate of 20%. I personally like the American version better.
    6) Disagree on salary caps. I do think there should be better regulation to prevent them sacking retirement funds or raiding other parts of the company. I'm also against golden parachutes. They should be the first to be burned by the failure of the company.
    7) I disagree on the inheritance tax but it's not that big of a deal. There's a million ways around it.
    8) There are too many reforms for our high schools to even start on. I mentioned a few above. We need to stop trying to tell everyone to go to college. Not everyone belongs there. We need to be focusing on routing people into the right career training based on their capabilities and merit.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #202
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's a rather narrow definition of freedom. Just because I voluntarily sign an employment contract, it is not an indication that I possess liberty or that I am free in a broader sense of the word. It may simply be an indication that I chose the best option out of a menu of horrible options.
    Which is why we need a system that advocates as many options as possible.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  3. #203
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    1) Education is one of the few things I do think should be socialized. There is no better to way insure equal OPPORTUNITY (not outcome) than to provide standard education. This needs to be more like Germany though, where there are 3 levels of high schools, each designed to route kids into the right direction, whether that be job training, a technical school, or college.
    2) I don't think the state should be establishing anything. If workers want to establish it and join VOLUNTARILY, then they should do that
    3) I can get on board with that.
    4) Disagree. We need better regulations not more.
    5) The progressiveness of the German tax system is absolutely insane. Almost no country in the world ****s the poor and middle class harder with taxes than Germany. Someone making 1000 euro a month, barely enough to live on, still pays about 200 euro a month in taxes, an effective rate of 20%. I personally like the American version better.
    6) Disagree on salary caps. I do think there should be better regulation to prevent them sacking retirement funds or raiding other parts of the company. I'm also against golden parachutes. They should be the first to be burned by the failure of the company.
    7) I disagree on the inheritance tax but it's not that big of a deal. There's a million ways around it.
    8) There are too many reforms for our high schools to even start on. I mentioned a few above. We need to stop trying to tell everyone to go to college. Not everyone belongs there. We need to be focusing on routing people into the right career training based on their capabilities and merit.
    How amusing. We've spat back and forth for days about the class dynamics of labor, but in the end the conclusions are reasonable.

  4. #204
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    We've passed the point of voluntary contracts. There's no voluntary contract with the government. Their regulations should enable people to acquire property. Nothing to do with libertarianism, that's simply the whole idea behind capitalism and a property-owning democracy. And if 20% of the populace holds 85% of the wealth, there's not much libertarian about it. You can't reasonably suggest that's the result of individual intelligence and energy. It's a monopoly on wealth if you will.
    ^This is a big reason why I consider myself a left libertarian. Instead of being apologists for the current system, we ought to reach out to the left and say "Yes, our current system is corrupt, both in the public AND private sector! It is an unholy marriage that perverts the whole idea of a truly freeD market!"

    And yes, I do see some libertarians say this, but unfortunately it is so infrequent that socialists and communists have come to view libertarians as corporatists.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  5. #205
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Actually, when a failed business impacts the public - it becomes a public matter inherently. Businesses, despite what libertarians would like to pretend, do not exist in vacuum. Sometimes, their irresponsible behavior screws everybody else and then it becomes society's business and since government is supposed to act on behalf of the people - the people can elect politicians who will develop policies to do just that.
    Should the government bail out every business that is going under? If not, who gets such a privilege? Those who have the most lobbying power? Because that is what we ultimately get.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  6. #206
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Waas, how about instead of increasing the size the State we create a Citizen's Dividend to balance out the wealth distribution?

    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  7. #207
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Well, my position hasn't changed. Until now, you were simply misunderstanding my rhetoric.

    I'd do the following to fix it:

    - Make higher education free and increase the number of technically oriented institutions.
    That's like shooting your face off with a shotgun but you're tripping so you think its a flower.

    - Establish independent workers' collectives.
    Lol. That isn't even backhanded.

    - Replace the welfare program with a jobs guarantee program - see the Civilian Conservation Corps.
    A huge expansion of government then? Lol..

    - Increase funding to regulatory agencies.
    Why? There is no reason for that.

    - Pass tax reform to make our brackets similar to those used in Germany.
    No. Why in the world would someone be interested in that system?

    - Set salary caps for executives.
    No. Because its not fair I presume? Yeah, I don't care what you think is fair. They have the right to earn what they can like anyone else.

    - Put a hefty tax on inheritance.
    No. Elimination is more my style.

    - Increase funding to public high schools and require them to offer free tutoring for SAT/ACT.
    No. People can study and funding is not the problem.

    Among other things.
    No. You've had enough bad ideas for today.
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-24-13 at 06:36 PM.

  8. #208
    Only Losers H8 Capitalism
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Waas, how about instead of increasing the size the State we create a Citizen's Dividend to balance out the wealth distribution?

    Didn't you just start a thread about this video?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...-dividend.html

    Or are you just looking to post it everywhere you think is relevant?
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #209
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Didn't you just start a thread about this video?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...-dividend.html

    Or are you just looking to post it everywhere you think is relevant?
    Yes, I did. I think it warrants its own thread, as it is not something that has really been discussed on this forum. It is also relevant to this discussion.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  10. #210
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    4) Disagree. We need better regulations not more.
    It's interesting that you interpreted his point that way. You saw "more laws" I saw "better oversight". However, I do agree many regulations need to be revisited and updated. I specifically think we need to exclude Mom & Pop from many of them.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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