View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    17 56.67%
  • No

    13 43.33%
Page 20 of 22 FirstFirst ... 101819202122 LastLast
Results 191 to 200 of 213

Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #191
    Engineer

    RabidAlpaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    American in Europe
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:30 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    14,587

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    You block out reality to remain within that narrow world presented to you by Rand, no? What I want is liberation for the working class, not a nanny state.
    It doesn't matter what you want. That could be a different topic altogether. What we are talking about is you defining someone offering someone else a job, that they can take or decline, as slavery and force, and anti-liberty, and anti-libertarian, and blah blah blah.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #192
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Riding a tapir
    Last Seen
    01-27-13 @ 10:21 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,432
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It doesn't matter what you want. That could be a different topic altogether. What we are talking about is you defining someone offering someone else a job, that they can take or decline, as slavery and force, and anti-liberty, and anti-libertarian, and blah blah blah.
    If you attack and lie about my definition of liberty, it's only fair that I correct you.

    I can't comprehend how you could be so unable to understand the concepts I've laid before you over and over again. So this is what happens when you're backed into a corner.

  3. #193
    Engineer

    RabidAlpaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    American in Europe
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:30 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    14,587

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    If you attack and lie about my definition of liberty, it's only fair that I correct you.

    I can't comprehend how you could be so unable to understand the concepts I've laid before you over and over again.
    No, you made this thread because you wanted to try to get libertarians to agree with you, and yet we all resoundingly completely disagreed. The freedom of association is one of the single most important aspects of libertarianism.

    I don't even recall anybody in this thread even acknowledging your insane idea that someone offering someone else voluntary employment was coercion.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #194
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Riding a tapir
    Last Seen
    01-27-13 @ 10:21 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,432
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    No, you made this thread because you wanted to try to get libertarians to agree with you, and yet we all resoundingly completely disagreed. The freedom of association is one of the single most important aspects of libertarianism.

    I don't even recall anybody in this thread even acknowledging your insane idea that someone offering someone else voluntary employment was coercion.
    Read up:

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    To my, and many others' chagrin, Marx was actually the first to point this out. That to make a profit, the employer must extract money either by lowering the employees' salaries, or by increasing the price to the consumer - the latter would make hinder their ability to compete in the market.

    And, as I pointed out to our furry friend, a market like the one you guys imagine does not exist. In reality, competition for positions exists, as does the need to generate income. Especially in the case of low-skilled workers, there's no guarantee of a position after quitting, much less a better one. Moreso, Employers don't need to compete for laborers, so nothing aside from government forces them to set reasonable wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    In a capitalist, free market country with a large gap between rich and poor and a competitive market, one class ends up being exploited by another. The need to generate income, combined with competition for positions forces workers to take whatever positions they can get. If Mr. Bob quits his job, chances are that he won't find a better one, if he's employed at all. In reality, where competition exists, Joe may be stuck in his position, advancement depending upon the will of his employer.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    The morality of a libertarian, though we may disagree on how to categorize it, is one that pushes free association and egalitarianism as a policy measure. Equality does not exist where one stands above another.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Is that a joke? Any entity exerting force over another is strictly against libertarian morality.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Yes, but without labor there can be no economy at all. Ideas do have their merit, but someone simply profiting from intellectual property and the labor of others should not take precedence over a worker.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    In a capitalist country competitive job market, what forces you to enter a contract is the need to generate income.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    And the welfare program is poorly done, but it's still something we need - I'd much rather implement a version of the CCCs. In no way does a system that helps keep the poor alive responsible for their poverty - people on welfare live in depressing conditions, which is incentive for advancement in it's own right.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    You think creating a business is the same thing as creating wealth? Are you denying that it's the workers who maintain it through labor? Labor sustains the economy, not intellectual property.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    I explained to you that the need to generate income forces an employee to choose between unsavory employment options. And before you go on the expected tangent: No, when there're plenty of workers available, employers won't be forced to raise their offered wages to compete; inversely, employers with high offered wages will lower them to compete with institutions paying less.
    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    And a market like the one you describes does not exist. In reality, competition for jobs exists, and due to the need to sustain yourself, workers will take any position that helps them earns them a salary.
    You no longer have an excuse to misunderstand my ideas.

  5. #195
    Engineer

    RabidAlpaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    American in Europe
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:30 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    14,587

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Read up:












    You no longer have an excuse to misunderstand my ideas.
    Sounds like your beef is with the government, and the economy in general. Somebody offering someone else a job that they can take or leave is under no definition coercion or force.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #196
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Riding a tapir
    Last Seen
    01-27-13 @ 10:21 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,432
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Sounds like your beef is with the government, and the economy in general. Somebody offering someone else a job that they can take or leave is under no definition coercion or force.
    You're 100% right there, but it's the current state of affairs that forces one into less than adequate positions.

  7. #197
    Engineer

    RabidAlpaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    American in Europe
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:30 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    14,587

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    You're 100% right there, but it's the current state of affairs that forces one into less than adequate positions.
    So now that we've got past the initial BS of blaming people for hiring people. What would you actually do to fix the situation?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #198
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Last Seen
    01-22-17 @ 09:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    4,136

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's a rather narrow definition of freedom. Just because I voluntarily sign an employment contract, it is not an indication that I possess liberty or that I am free in a broader sense of the word. It may simply be an indication that I chose the best option out of a menu of horrible options.
    And that is called maximizing utility.

  9. #199
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Riding a tapir
    Last Seen
    01-27-13 @ 10:21 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,432
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So now that we've got past the initial BS of blaming people for hiring people. What would you actually do to fix the situation?
    Well, my position hasn't changed. Until now, you were simply misunderstanding my rhetoric.

    I'd do the following to fix it:
    - Make higher education free and increase the number of technically oriented institutions.
    - Establish independent workers' collectives.
    - Replace the welfare program with a jobs guarantee program - see the Civilian Conservation Corps.
    - Increase funding to regulatory agencies.
    - Pass tax reform to make our brackets similar to those used in Germany.
    - Set salary caps for executives.
    - Put a hefty tax on inheritance.
    - Increase funding to public high schools and require them to offer free tutoring for SAT/ACT.

    Among other things.

  10. #200
    Sage
    Geoist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 03:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    9,916

    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    Are you [still] a libertarian if you support business owners being able to exert power over employees?
    The answers you receive may depend on the type of libertarian who answers.

    For me, the question is a bit obscure. Should a business owner be allowed to exert the power to let go the employee if he/she does not perform the work to the employer's satisfaction? Sure. Does a business owner have a right to physically abuse his/her workers? Of course not.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

Page 20 of 22 FirstFirst ... 101819202122 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •