View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #181
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    He's better than I am. I already dismissed your drivel when you used words like "exploited".
    He's smarter than you are, gipper. But, as a libertarian, it's not surprising that you'd ignore labor economics to side with those that create class disparity.

  2. #182
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    He's smarter than you are, gipper. But, as a libertarian, it's not surprising that you'd ignore labor economics to side with those that create class disparity.
    I gotta admit...you have balls to be a Marxist and lecture me about economics. It'd be like Michael Vick teaching me how to train my pet.

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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I gotta admit...you have balls to be a Marxist and lecture me about economics. It'd be like Michael Vick teaching me how to train my pet.
    Likewise. You deviant corporatists haven't exactly become what you aspired to be either, have you? At least leftists embrace morality instead of dismissing it as a factor that inhibits growth.

  4. #184
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Just because I have the power does not mean I have to exert it. In fact, I would not want an employee to work for me if I have to "exert" anything on them.

    My peeps look to me to lead them. Sometimes leading means letting them take the reigns every now and again and try them on for size. My valued employees are part of my company. My best part.

    Keep in mind, I only have 3 full time people, so I can only speak from where I am coming from.

    But my folks want to be there. They want to do good. They have great work ethic. We are all rowing the same canoe. We all have personal obligations and committments. We all look to our job to be able to provide for those things. What is good for one is good for all.

    I couldn't "exert" that kind of attitude over them on my best day. It just happens.

    But we all know who's nuts are in a vice there. But I don't need a "boss" name tag.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  5. #185
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Just because I have the power does not mean I have to exert it. In fact, I would not want an employee to work for me if I have to "exert" anything on them.

    My peeps look to me to lead them. Sometimes leading means letting them take the reigns every now and again and try them on for size. My valued employees are part of my company. My best part.

    Keep in mind, I only have 3 full time people, so I can only speak from where I am coming from.

    But my folks want to be there. They want to do good. They have great work ethic. We are all rowing the same canoe. We all have personal obligations and committments. We all look to our job to be able to provide for those things. What is good for one is good for all.

    I couldn't "exert" that kind of attitude over them on my best day. It just happens.

    But we all know who's nuts are in a vice there. But I don't need a "boss" name tag.
    Exactly! Being a boss means being a leader, not being bossy.
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  6. #186
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    I actually feel the same way. I don't think you're of poor motivations, merely mistaken in how you define liberty. And despite my efforts, this debate was a dismal failure. It's simply that I understand your morality, and you in good faith side with thieves over the exploited. So, perhaps we should trade the titles of literature.
    Your definition of "liberty" seems to be that everyone gets a check from the government so that they don't feel "enslaved" by having to work. That's been your whole beef right? That people feel "forced" to work? Nevermind the money to send out these checks was taken at gun point.

    I prefer to use the standard, actual definition of liberty. Not giving somebody something they want is not using force or aggression against them.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  7. #187
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Any and all laws are a restriction on freedom...and if you think it's a given, then I must point out that THIS comment does not jive with... ...this comment.
    Of course that is what I said, that is the point my post.

    You contend that freedom with legal restrictions is a given. I would ask why?
    No, I contend that with each restriction you lose freedom and never have the possibility to gain it back.

    WHY must freedom be limited, no, inhibited, by laws? Do we not do this, impose this restriction on freedom, in order to promote a greater level of freedom?
    People do in fact believe that and it is very much a dangerous view.

    Seems to me, the idea flies just fine...I restrict their freedom to violate other people's rights...those rights, by and by, being the enablers of THEIR freedom. Without rights, without those restrictions on freedom, very very very few people would ever actually be anything remotely resembling "free".
    I don't think merely punishing of right violations keeps us save or promotes freedom. It merely deals with something after it occurs and punishes the right violation.


    See slavery. Much more than safety. If you think our rights exist only to keep us safe, then I gotta say...I over estimated you. The core of what we are discussing has everything to do with libertarianism, and the primary difference between a minarchist, and an anarchist. Minarchists exist on the moral slippery slope of compromise, and some would call them (me) a small L libertarian, as in, not hardcore. The more hardcore libertarians adhere religiously to the NAP, which, when taken to the extremes that they (you?) often do, equals no government, since government is, and always will be, the single largest initiator of force/aggression against others. I put question marks after you, because I'm still not sure where you sit. Sorry if you're offended, I meant none.
    I'm pretty much only interested in rights and liberties from natural and scientific outlook and everything else is not my concern. Some will put schools and fire in there, but I will only use the functions that reach the ends I laid out to start out with. I don't believe I'm on a slippy slope since I established a foundation and understanding of rights and functions of government that can not not be added on too without scientific understanding expanding first. While surely the government would expand as time and understand grew using my system it would stay inside a fenced in area. The morality of the question doesn't seem to be involved since the foundation is established and understood at the start. Assuming of course that government doesn't do what it always does everything should be controlled.


    Not paying someone for services rendered, IE, an income, is not optional, and is illegal. Ergo, tips, which are completely optional, is not income. It is a gift. I know...splitting hairs.
    It is an economic actively that generated wealth in exchange for an individual's performance. How is that not income?

    To compromise, I believe you are correct...gifts are NOT the most motivational thing out there. What motivates people are possibilities. The greater the odds of those possibilities coming to fruition, the more motivated people will be to achieve them. A stripper who thinks I am more likely to lay a big tip on her is gonna do more to impress me.
    The tip wasn't the thing that motivated action. The money is the motivator in the lap dance which the desire for existed before the lap dance and possibility of income from it came up. Therefore, the gift is only taking advantage of a prior motivation. Its the same thing in MoSurveyor's example but instead of a lap dance it's bribery. In both examples the motivation isn't created by the example but prior motivations.
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-24-13 at 10:12 AM.

  8. #188
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    =Henrin

    No, I contend that with each restriction you lose freedom and never have the possibility to gain it back.
    Freedoms are gained back all the time. And perhaps from a current standpoint, that is, looking at this country today, you would view any new restrictions (laws) as being freedom inhibitors. But go back to the drawing board, and picture the US without laws. There are some mighty fine examples of what happens when the law, and those that enforce it, are abandoned, just within the last decade.


    People do in fact believe that and it is very much a dangerous view.
    Explain how one is MORE free, as in, able to do what they want, when they want, without the rule of law, and a substantial force backing it.


    I don't think merely punishing of right violations keeps us save or promotes freedom. It merely deals with something after it occurs and punishes the right violation.
    The punishment is the deterrent. Ever hear of negative reinforcement? Yes, by the time someone is being punished, the crime is committed, and someone's rights have been violated...and that punishment is not going to UNviolate that person's rights. But, depending on the severity of the crime, the punishment for the criminal will be such that it deters other would be criminals from engaging in similar behavior. And face facts...ALL humans are potential criminals. A criminal is a being created under a specific set of circumstances.


    I'm pretty much only interested in rights and liberties from natural and scientific outlook and everything else is not my concern.
    Explain natural and scientific rights. Until you do, the rest of what you posted is pointless.



    It is an economic actively that generated wealth in exchange for an individual's performance. How is that not income?
    Because income is obligatory, gifts are optional. IE, I hire that stripper to show up at a stag party...we negotiate a flat rate for her appearance...and I HAVE to pay her that, or it is a breach of contract, which is illegal. However, no one at the stag party needs pay her anything. Those tips she gets for her actual performance are not a part of her contract, are completely optional on the part of the dudes laying them on her, and are therefor not considered income. Not to me, anyway. Uncle Sam's greedy ass sees it differently.


    The tip wasn't the thing that motivated action. The money is the motivator in the lap dance which the desire for existed before the lap dance and possibility of income from it came up. Therefore, the gift is only taking advantage of a prior motivation. Its the same thing in MoSurveyor's example but instead of a lap dance it's bribery. In both examples the motivation isn't created by the example but prior motivations.
    Right. The possibility. It's possibility that motivates people. Money is nothing more than a means to an end. Maybe she wanted that 15 bucks to buy milk and eggs for her kids, maybe she wanted it to score a little pot, or maybe she wanted it to make the rent that month. In all of those instances, the money is just the middle man.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #189
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    What I'm presenting to you is the irony of our current business structure - one where the employer lives off the labors of a worker, not only stealing from him, but controlling the conditions of his life. And we as a society don't value the contributions those that keep us afloat, but the intellectual property that holds one class above another.
    An employer is not stealing from an employee. I had a job working for one place, and it sucked...so I left, and got a job working at another place. At no point did I have to fend of droves of armed guards to escape, or anything of the sort. I told them I was giving my two weeks, they counter offered to keep me there, I told them I'd think about it (IE, go suck a dick), and in two weeks time, walked out of that job, no issues at all, and into the next job, no issues at all. Because I was able to do this, nothing was STOLEN. Stealing labor implies that one is forced to work at a specific spot. And over my lifetime, I have never once, ever, been forced to work at a specific spot. Forced to work? Yes. I need to work to earn money to live. But that in no way makes me a wage slave. Now, do I feel it's unfortunate that we all have to work, in order to live? Sure. All I can say is, thanks, Eve, for the apple. Barring that, I simply don't think any other system is effective at both ensuring the best allocation of resources, and the highest possible degree of personal liberty. Those are the two sides of the scale, and they gotta be fairly balanced, in order for me to be happy. Granting me more personal freedom at the cost of misallocation of resources, and my freedom doesn't mean squat. Likewise, removing my personal freedom so that we can all have more, or the same amount of stuff...doesn't make me very happy either. So there needs to be a balance. Think of me as being a tight rope walker, between YOU, and the anarcho capitalists out there.

    As for intellectual property...what's you counter proposal to it? The one's idea belongs to them, or that we should not have exclusive rights to concepts we develop? Thinking is labor (more so for SOME than for others...har har.), and concepts, plans, and ideas are the product of that labor. Are you suggesting we should not be able to own the fruits of our labor?

    That intellectual property rights get abused...is not at stake here, because they ARE being abused by some. But to toss the idea out because of it? Much much worse, in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Your definition of "liberty" seems to be that everyone gets a check from the government so that they don't feel "enslaved" by having to work. That's been your whole beef right? That people feel "forced" to work? Nevermind the money to send out these checks was taken at gun point.

    I prefer to use the standard, actual definition of liberty. Not giving somebody something they want is not using force or aggression against them.
    You block out reality to remain within that narrow world presented to you by Rand, no? What I want is liberation for the working class, not a nanny state.

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