View Poll Results: Are you a libertarian if you support this?

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  • Yes

    17 56.67%
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    13 43.33%
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Thread: Are you a libertarian if...

  1. #171
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Really? This current structure is where the employer steals from the worker? How is that possible when the employer is the one who is paying the worker? How is that possible if the worker voluntarily applied for the job? How does the employer control the conditions of the worker's life when the worker can leave at anytime?
    To my, and many others' chagrin, Marx was actually the first to point this out. That to make a profit, the employer must extract money either by lowering the employees' salaries, or by increasing the price to the consumer - the latter would make hinder their ability to compete in the market.

    And, as I pointed out to our furry friend, a market like the one you guys imagine does not exist. In reality, competition for positions exists, as does the need to generate income. Especially in the case of low-skilled workers, there's no guarantee of a position after quitting, much less a better one. Moreso, Employers don't need to compete for laborers, so nothing aside from government forces them to set reasonable wages.

  2. #172
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Yes, it is, by entering into a voluntary work contract you are using your right to freely associate. You are also not discriminated against while doing so because it is an egalitarian system. You're trying to claim that the government stepping in and forcing the employer to pay more isn't coercion or force. In reality, it defies the entirety of libertarianism. So sorry, bud, you're going to have to hate libertarianism for what it is, not for what it isn't.
    I implore you to actually read what I've written on the topic of these contracts you hold to such an esteem. Ignoring something doesn't make it go away.

  3. #173
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    This is where we're disagreeing. The government is supposed to be the rule moderator, who sets up the rules of the game so that every player is on the same level, then to let the game be played. Instead what we have is the rule moderator making rules that favor one set of people instead of being equal. The moderators are slipping money from the monopoly bank to some players to make them richer and more powerful, providing mulligans, and designing the game to **** the little guy.

    As long as we let the government play master market manipulator, they're going to favor the people who pay them most. Personally I'd like to outlaw any kind of campaign contributions or favors promised to all politicians, and any politician that gets caught in dereliction of their duty by accepting funds from special interests, should be hung on the steps of capital hill. It's high treason and we tolerate it.

    I'd like to finish my point off with a quote:
    "Don't hate the player, hate the game" (And specifically those who designed the game)
    We're not disagreeing at all. I just said the cause of the government's direction doesn't effect the vector method --- and that I didn't expect the current system to change anytime soon (but not because I don't want it to change).

    In fact, I DO agree with you that business should have very little input into government beyond government asking for their opinion and expertise at times to make more informed decisions. Every elected official should consider what their constituents want, and business owners are constituents, too, and need to be heard. The problems start when the business owners are given preferential treatment. The People (as a whole) should always be #1 in a politician's decisions, not a distant second at best.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-23-13 at 05:50 PM.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    In this case your argument is one of the things the founders where fighting against.
    The Founders didn't set up the Supreme Court to resolve disputes by interpreting the law?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-23-13 at 05:56 PM.
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  5. #175
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The Founders didn't set up the Supreme Court to interpret the law?
    I'm talking about the reason behind the eighth amendment and why excessive bail is mentioned.

  6. #176
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm talking about the reason behind the eighth amendment and why excessive bail is mentioned.
    What, specifically, is "excessive" and who decides that?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  7. #177
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    We're not disagreeing at all. I just said the cause of the government's direction doesn't effect the vector method --- and that I didn't expect the current system to change anytime soon (but not because I don't want it to change).

    In fact, I DO agree with you that business should have very little input into government beyond government asking for their opinion and expertise at times to make more informed decisions. Every elected official should consider what their constituents want, and business owners are constituents, too, and need to be heard. The problems start when the business owners are given preferential treatment. The People (as a whole) should always be #1 in a politician's decisions, not a distant second at best.
    And who gives big business the preferential treatment? The politicians. Therefore, it starts with them. If you really understand vectors, you'll understand that stronger vectors will effect the net some more than others. The government is not only that, but it also manipulates how the vectors are calculated.

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    I implore you to actually read what I've written on the topic of these contracts you hold to such an esteem. Ignoring something doesn't make it go away.
    I don't know what happened to you bro, you and I used to be able to debate in spite of disagreeing on everything. You've changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #178
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    And who gives big business the preferential treatment? The politicians. Therefore, it starts with them.
    I agree, they do - and we continue to allow it. With SCOTUS siding with the political manipulators, though, (IIRC, they called it "free speech" for corporations :-/) it's going to take a LOT to change the system because we can't stop private industry from paying for political advertisements. But I do disagree that it starts with them. It starts - and must always start - with us, the voters. If we continue to elect and re-elect those people then it's no one's fault but our own. Of course, we seldom have other choices but we could have if we really pushed that direction. We do still need a good way to put the Independents on a somewhat equal footing to the popular political groups, though, or it will never happen. Your ideas on advertising would be a good start.


    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    If you really understand vectors, you'll understand that stronger vectors will effect the net some more than others. The government is not only that, but it also manipulates how the vectors are calculated.
    The government can certainly increase or decrease an industry's impact on the economy. I'm not sure what you mean by how they're calculated, though. If you mean economic indicators, I have to disagree. US government economic information is some of the best and most well-watched data in the world. If someone (even the government) was playing with the numbers someone else would find out in short order and yell. I do agree that politicians use the public's ignorance of economic data and terms to their advantage when arguing their policies.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #179
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't know what happened to you bro, you and I used to be able to debate in spite of disagreeing on everything. You've changed.
    I actually feel the same way. I don't think you're of poor motivations, merely mistaken in how you define liberty. And despite my efforts, this debate was a dismal failure. It's simply that I understand your morality, and you in good faith side with thieves over the exploited. So, perhaps we should trade the titles of literature.

  10. #180
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    Re: Are you a libertarian if...

    Quote Originally Posted by waas View Post
    I actually feel the same way. I don't think you're of poor motivations, merely mistaken in how you define liberty. And despite my efforts, this debate was a dismal failure. It's simply that I understand your morality, and you in good faith side with thieves over the exploited. So, perhaps we should trade the titles of literature.
    He's better than I am. I already dismissed your drivel when you used words like "exploited".

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